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→‎Count Iblis NOTHERE case: Never say niemals
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:*This. Count Iblis is basically a NOTHERE, largely unfunny version of EEng. I dare say that most of us don't pay the Count much attention, and he probably realizes that. Perhaps that is why his explicit endorsement of anti-Arbcom anarachy has not previously caused much angst. I think he's harmless enough that we could probably ignore him, but he's also technically disruptive enough that we would be justified in trying to rein him in. It's probably not going to have a huge impact on the pedia either way, which makes me wonder if I wasted my time writing and revising this comment. Oh well. [[User:Lepricavark|Lepricavark]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark|talk]]) 05:49, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
:*This. Count Iblis is basically a NOTHERE, largely unfunny version of EEng. I dare say that most of us don't pay the Count much attention, and he probably realizes that. Perhaps that is why his explicit endorsement of anti-Arbcom anarachy has not previously caused much angst. I think he's harmless enough that we could probably ignore him, but he's also technically disruptive enough that we would be justified in trying to rein him in. It's probably not going to have a huge impact on the pedia either way, which makes me wonder if I wasted my time writing and revising this comment. Oh well. [[User:Lepricavark|Lepricavark]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark|talk]]) 05:49, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
:*:<small>It's quite stressful being a community byword, let me tell you. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 09:20, 18 December 2018 (UTC)</small>
:*:<small>It's quite stressful being a community byword, let me tell you. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 09:20, 18 December 2018 (UTC)</small>
:::*Just to be clear, that wasn't meant to be an insult. I think you play the role of Wiki-jester quite well, and I believe you are good for the sanity of the community. [[User:Lepricavark|Lepricavark]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark|talk]]) 14:21, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
*''''Oppose''' - What next ? ... Are we going to ban myself, BMK, MarnetteD and many others for having the "Ignore all rules" banner on our talkpages ? ...., To a certain extent the Hitler comment is problematic but as far as I can see it was one comment ... they're not referring to everyone as Hitler on a daily basis ...., I'm not seeing anything that remotely warrants banning, blocking, sanctions, topic bans or anything else that I've not thought of. –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 19:32, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
*''''Oppose''' - What next ? ... Are we going to ban myself, BMK, MarnetteD and many others for having the "Ignore all rules" banner on our talkpages ? ...., To a certain extent the Hitler comment is problematic but as far as I can see it was one comment ... they're not referring to everyone as Hitler on a daily basis ...., I'm not seeing anything that remotely warrants banning, blocking, sanctions, topic bans or anything else that I've not thought of. –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 19:32, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
:*I think you're misinterpreting the purpose of [[WP:IAR]], which says <blockquote>'''If <u>a rule</u> prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.'''</blockquote> In other words, it's not intended to be blanket permission to ignore '''''every''''' policy, guideline or rule on '''''every''''' occasion, but, instead, to make an evaluation of whether a rule is standing in the way of an improvement, in which case one is empowered to ignore it. That isn't an invitation to anarchy, it's a way to ensure that rules don't impede progress. On the other hand, what Count Iblis is saying -- and, worse, encouraging in others -- '''''<u>is</u>''''' anarchy. His statements <blockquote>'''Count Iblis rejects most of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. He just edits in any way he sees fit to improve Wikipedia. Whether such edits violate Wikipedia's policies is neither here nor there'''</blockquote> and <blockquote>'''Count Iblis does not recognize the validity of ArbCom rulings. He calls on all restricted editors to violate their restrictions and on all Admins to unblock editors who are blocked on Arbitration Enforcement grounds'''</blockquote> would, quite literally, if adopted by all editors, lead to complete anarchy on Wikipedia.{{parabr}}Quite possibly, Count Iblis considers that possibility, of anarchy on Wikipedia, to be a good thing. I -- and I believe that vast majority of Wikipedia editors -- do not. We recognize that freedoms and responsibilities must be balanced, and that structure is necessary to ensure the continued existence of Wikipedia. We already spend much too much time litigating disputes between editors, and Count Iblis' version of an anarchic Wikipedia would increase that overhead tremendously. We'd be spending so much time ironing out disputes that no one would have any time to actually improve the encyclopedia.{{parabr}}No, Count Iblis simply is not suited to be a Wikipedian, and his statements make that abundantly clear. Add to that the fact that he doesn't actually '''''do''''' anything to improve the encyclopedia (whether you agree with its purpose or not, there is no argument to be made that the Ref Desks improve the encyclopedia in any way shape, or form; they are purely an ancillary activity), and you've got a very strong argument for their being NOTHERE. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 07:40, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
:*I think you're misinterpreting the purpose of [[WP:IAR]], which says <blockquote>'''If <u>a rule</u> prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.'''</blockquote> In other words, it's not intended to be blanket permission to ignore '''''every''''' policy, guideline or rule on '''''every''''' occasion, but, instead, to make an evaluation of whether a rule is standing in the way of an improvement, in which case one is empowered to ignore it. That isn't an invitation to anarchy, it's a way to ensure that rules don't impede progress. On the other hand, what Count Iblis is saying -- and, worse, encouraging in others -- '''''<u>is</u>''''' anarchy. His statements <blockquote>'''Count Iblis rejects most of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. He just edits in any way he sees fit to improve Wikipedia. Whether such edits violate Wikipedia's policies is neither here nor there'''</blockquote> and <blockquote>'''Count Iblis does not recognize the validity of ArbCom rulings. He calls on all restricted editors to violate their restrictions and on all Admins to unblock editors who are blocked on Arbitration Enforcement grounds'''</blockquote> would, quite literally, if adopted by all editors, lead to complete anarchy on Wikipedia.{{parabr}}Quite possibly, Count Iblis considers that possibility, of anarchy on Wikipedia, to be a good thing. I -- and I believe that vast majority of Wikipedia editors -- do not. We recognize that freedoms and responsibilities must be balanced, and that structure is necessary to ensure the continued existence of Wikipedia. We already spend much too much time litigating disputes between editors, and Count Iblis' version of an anarchic Wikipedia would increase that overhead tremendously. We'd be spending so much time ironing out disputes that no one would have any time to actually improve the encyclopedia.{{parabr}}No, Count Iblis simply is not suited to be a Wikipedian, and his statements make that abundantly clear. Add to that the fact that he doesn't actually '''''do''''' anything to improve the encyclopedia (whether you agree with its purpose or not, there is no argument to be made that the Ref Desks improve the encyclopedia in any way shape, or form; they are purely an ancillary activity), and you've got a very strong argument for their being NOTHERE. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 07:40, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
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*'''A Joke?''' I see zero evidence that Count Iblis is trying or succeeding at humor. Perhaps the people suggesting that idea are trying to be funny? I never found Nazis funny. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 12:44, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
*'''A Joke?''' I see zero evidence that Count Iblis is trying or succeeding at humor. Perhaps the people suggesting that idea are trying to be funny? I never found Nazis funny. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 12:44, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
*:[http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/223896/Producers-The-Movie-Clip-Springtime-For-Hitler.html ''Never?''] [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 14:16, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
*:[http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/223896/Producers-The-Movie-Clip-Springtime-For-Hitler.html ''Never?''] [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 14:16, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
*:This isn't about you. Let's not exaggerate the extent of CI's wrongdoings and let's not get outraged based on such an exaggeration. [[User:Lepricavark|Lepricavark]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark|talk]]) 14:21, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

===Alternate proposal - Topic ban ===
===Alternate proposal - Topic ban ===


Revision as of 14:22, 18 December 2018

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      Talk:Brothers of Italy#RfC on neo-fascism in info box 3 (Effectively option 4 from RfC2)

      (Initiated 82 days ago on 8 April 2024) Clear consensus for change but not what to change to. I've handled this RfC very badly imo. User:Alexanderkowal — Preceding undated comment added 11:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[]

       Comment: The RfC tag was removed the same day it was started. This should be closed as a discussion, not an RfC. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[]

      Talk:Mukokuseki#RfC on using the wording "stereotypically Western characteristics" in the lead

      (Initiated 79 days ago on 11 April 2024) ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 09:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[]

      See Talk:Mukokuseki#Close Plz 5/21/2024 Orchastrattor (talk) 20:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[]

      Talk:Line of Duty#Request for comment: Listing Jed Mercurio in the Infobox as a showrunner

      (Initiated 62 days ago on 28 April 2024) Discussion on the actual RfC seems to have slowed. Consensus appeared clear to me, but I was reverted attempting to implement the edits so I'm requesting a formal closure. There is additional information on this topic (overall and about the page in question specifically) at Template_talk:Infobox_television#Alternatives_to_writer_and_director_parameters that I'd request a closer reads over. TheDoctorWho (talk) 05:25, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      RFA2024, Phase II discussions

      Hi! Closers are requested for the following three discussion:

      Many thanks in advance! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      If re-requesting closure at WP:AN isn't necessary, then how about different various closers for cerain section(s)? I don't mind one or two closers for one part or another or more. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      During Phase I of RFA2024, we had ended up having multiple closers for different RFCs, even the non-obvious ones. I think different people closing subparts of this should be acceptable Soni (talk) 09:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 440#RfC: RFE/RL

      (Initiated 53 days ago on 7 May 2024) Archived Request for Comment. 73.219.238.21 (talk) 23:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Weather#Discussion -- New Proposal for layout of Tornadoes of YYYY articles

      (Initiated 50 days ago on 10 May 2024) RFC outcome is fairly clear (very clear majority consensus), however, a non WikiProject Weather person should close it. I was the RFC proposer, so I am classified too involved to close. There were three “points” in the RFC, and editors supported/opposed the points individually. Point one and three had 3-to-1 consensus’ and point two had a 2-to-1 consensus. Just need a non WP:Weather person to do the closure. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 14:39, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      Talk:Yasuke#RfC:_Should_the_view_that_Yasuke_was_a_samurai_be_added_to_the_article

      (Initiated 39 days ago on 21 May 2024) It's a bit buried in a header designed to group similar discussions together (because there have been so many of them). I would like to request an experienced or admin closer, as this page has had a lot of new or WP:SPA accounts on it recently, so some more advanced weighting of the consensus here may be necessary. Loki (talk) 21:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      I'd like to point out that at least two of the accounts active on the Talk:Yasuke page in an oppositional role, myself and @Green Caffeine, are not at all SPAs, and we have brought up serious issues with various sources claimed as "reliable". These issues remain unaddressed, and mostly ignored by various editors (unfortunately, including Loki here), who continue to call references "reliable" even after it has been shown that the works have been academically reviewed and described as "historical fiction", and even contain outright fabrication. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Discussion-only period#Early close

      (Initiated 29 days ago on 31 May 2024) Since it's an injunctive discussion, I was hoping someone could step in and close after I withdrew my own. Thanks! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[]

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      Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza#Requested move 3 May 2024

      (Initiated 57 days ago on 3 May 2024) Contentious issue but I feel like basically all that's going to be said of substance has been said, and it's been plenty of time. I'm also still a bit new to being active again to feel comfortable closing myself, so I just turned my evaluation of what's been said into a !vote. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 22:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      For uninvolved editors, I drafted a closure at WP:DfD which can be drawn from, Tom B (talk) 07:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[]
      (Let me know if commenting on this is inappropriate as an involved editor, but...) Okay yeah, after reading your proposed closure, I'm glad I put in this request. Even before becoming formally "involved" I think I would've struggled to remain neutral here 😅 Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 12:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS

      (Initiated 32 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      Talk:Srebrenica massacre#Requested_move_2_June_2024

      (Initiated 27 days ago on 2 June 2024), then relisted 10 June, Tom B (talk) 09:51, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Dani Cavallaro

      (Initiated 25 days ago on 4 June 2024) A formal closure would be helpful to solidify consensus for future reference. Thanks! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 15:42, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[]

      Talk:Together_(coalition)#Requested_move_16_June_2024_2

      (Initiated 13 days ago on 16 June 2024) A move/rename discussion has taken place here alongside a merge discussion, the merge discussion has reached consensus, and I believe there's a case to be made that there is consensus on the name change, but a third party is required to determine if the discussion should be closed or not. GlowstoneUnknown (talk) 15:11, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[]

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      Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection

      Report
      Pages recently put under extended confirmed protection (50 out of 7970 total) (Purge)
      Page Protected Expiry Type Summary Admin
      File talk:Yes check.svg 2024-06-29 20:37 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated SuperMarioMan
      Draft:Jaan Say Pyara Juni 2024-06-29 19:03 indefinite move Persistent sock puppetry Ivanvector
      Template:Onesource 2024-06-29 18:00 indefinite edit High-risk template or module: 2601 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II
      Saraswat Brahmin 2024-06-29 14:55 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; WP:GSCASTE Abecedare
      Kalki 2898 AD 2024-06-29 14:41 2024-10-11 05:52 edit,move Persistent disruptive editing ToBeFree
      Talk:Maheshwari Flag 2024-06-29 08:13 2024-07-02 08:13 create Repeatedly recreated Liz
      Cristiano Ronaldo Jr 2024-06-29 05:41 indefinite edit,move Per AFD discussion Liz
      S-500 missile system 2024-06-29 00:05 indefinite edit extending protection indefinitely (Arbitration enforcement per CTOPS) Swatjester
      Karhade Brahmin 2024-06-28 23:49 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; WP:GSCASTE Abecedare
      Generation Beta 2024-06-28 19:06 indefinite edit,move Persistent disruptive editing: per RFPP; regular attempts to restore article from redirect Daniel Case
      Chavda dynasty 2024-06-28 16:41 indefinite edit,move Sock puppetry resumed after previous protection expired Abecedare
      Chavda (Rajput clan) 2024-06-28 16:39 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; battling sock armies; WP:GSCASTE Abecedare
      Draft:Ravichandran C 2024-06-28 15:34 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated BusterD
      Ravichandran C 2024-06-28 15:33 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated BusterD
      António Costa 2024-06-28 14:51 2025-06-28 14:51 edit,move Contentious topic restriction: WP:BLPCT ToBeFree
      Moruf Oseni 2024-06-28 13:26 indefinite edit,move for AfD improvement by established editors Star Mississippi
      Battle of Tel Hai 2024-06-28 12:30 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement CambridgeBayWeather
      Amana (organization) 2024-06-28 12:26 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement CambridgeBayWeather
      Bağanıs Ayrım 2024-06-28 12:20 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement CambridgeBayWeather
      Stuart Brotman 2024-06-27 21:21 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated: also deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stuart N. Brotman. Should go through AfC Star Mississippi
      Puri (surname) 2024-06-27 20:24 indefinite move Persistent disruptive editing CambridgeBayWeather
      Anfal campaign 2024-06-27 20:04 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement CambridgeBayWeather
      Russo-Circassian War 2024-06-27 19:36 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement CambridgeBayWeather
      Ideology of Palestinian Islamic Jihad 2024-06-27 19:11 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement CambridgeBayWeather
      Template:Fiction-based redirects to list entries category handler 2024-06-27 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2501 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II
      Bania (caste) 2024-06-27 17:24 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: WP:GS/CASTE -- requested at WP:RFPP Favonian
      Vikidia 2024-06-27 10:52 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Justlettersandnumbers
      Filippo Berto 2024-06-27 09:06 2024-12-24 08:42 edit,move upgrade to WP:ECP for the duration El C
      Bay of Pigs 2024-06-27 08:39 indefinite move Move warring Lectonar
      Rajputs in Gujarat 2024-06-27 05:12 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry Abecedare
      Agri (caste) 2024-06-27 05:09 indefinite edit,move Persistent disruptive editing and sockpuppetry; WP:GSCASTE Abecedare
      Other Backward Class 2024-06-27 05:04 indefinite edit,move Persistent disruptive editing and sockpuppetry; WP:GSCASTE Abecedare
      Monashee Spirits 2024-06-27 04:36 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Robertsky
      Thakor 2024-06-27 03:14 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; various sock farms; WP:GSCASTE Abecedare
      Thakur (title) 2024-06-27 03:14 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; various sock farms; WP:GSCASTE Abecedare
      Chhokar 2024-06-27 00:58 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; potentially several sockfarms including Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala Abecedare
      Chokar Kalan 2024-06-27 00:57 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala Abecedare
      Mehr people 2024-06-27 00:51 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala Abecedare
      Domaal Rajputs 2024-06-27 00:31 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; multiple sockfarms Abecedare
      Laur (clan) 2024-06-27 00:07 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala Abecedare
      Makwana Kolis 2024-06-26 23:39 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala Abecedare
      Chauhan (Clan) 2024-06-26 22:33 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala Abecedare
      Chauhan Kolis 2024-06-26 22:32 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Abecedare
      Hezbollah armed strength 2024-06-26 19:23 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA; in addition to existing community sanctions Daniel Case
      Module:Fiction-based redirects to list entries category handler/RedirectType 2024-06-26 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2501 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II
      Module:Fiction-based redirects to list entries category handler 2024-06-26 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2501 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II
      Proposed states and union territories of India 2024-06-26 13:19 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement: WP:ARBIND; upgrade to WP:ECP, maybe not indefinitely, but for a considerable time El C
      Khanpur, Gujarat 2024-06-26 05:04 indefinite move Persistent sock puppetry; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala Abecedare
      Punjabi Muslims 2024-06-26 03:12 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: per RFPP and WP:GS/CASTE Daniel Case
      Punjabis 2024-06-26 02:25 indefinite edit Community sanctions enforcement: per WP:GS/CASTE and recent disruption Daniel Case

      Proposing a temporary measure to assist in protecting the Main Page

      Discussion seems to have tapered off, with the last comment (excepting a request for closure) posted 4 days ago. While there was a great deal of initial enthusiasm for the proposal to limit Main Page editing to Interface Administrators, almost all comments since the end of November have been in opposition. I am therefore closing this as "no consensus for this change." 28bytes (talk) 06:30, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      As many Wikipedians have noticed, several accounts have recently been compromised. Three of these compromised accounts have been administrator accounts, and all three compromised admin accounts focused on vandalizing the Main Page, the public face of the project. The most recent compromised administrator account is that of a highly active administrator. I am part of the team investigating this series of events, along with stewards, other checkusers, and WMF Security and Trust & Safety staff. There are several actions taking place in the background, mainly for security and/or privacy requirements, that will not be discussed in this thread.

      One proposed temporary measure to mitigate the damage being caused by this vandal is to restrict editing of the Main Page to administrators who also hold Interface Administrator permissions. There is rarely a need to edit the Main Page itself — almost all of the work is done in the background using templates — so the impact of this temporary measure is minimal.

      As noted, this is intended to be a temporary measure that will give both the community and the investigating team some "breathing space" to focus on the vandal rather than the impact of the vandalism. It was suggested that we bring this change to the community for discussion prior to implementing it. Does anyone have any feedback on this proposal? Thanks for your participation. Risker (talk) 21:30, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[]

      Is it technically possible? The Main Page itself may not need many edits but the templates transcluded on it which are cascade protected are a different matter. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 21:32, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      Yes. Adding a protection level is relatively trivial to do in the MediaWiki back-end. Just needs consensus. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 21:35, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      Yes. This can be done by private filter from what I’ve been told. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:36, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      Sorry, I wasn't clear: Is this possible without all the templates transcluded on it also becoming it-protected? Because that would be hefty collateral damage. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 21:51, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      @Jo-Jo Eumerus: what @TonyBallioni: said been added. — xaosflux Talk 00:00, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[]

      Survey
      • Support. Regardless of what the best approach should be, there are times when one has to use whatever tool is at hand, and build better tools later. Perhaps we should start looking at a scheme of progressive protection where "anybody" can edit at the bottom of the pyramid, but increasing experience and trust are required to move up to vital or more developed pages.
      As a side note, I have long thought that "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" – which isn't even true – should be changed to "the collaborative free encyclopedia", emphasising working together. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:38, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      I could be wrong, but I don't believe that the WMF uses that tag line anymore. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:03, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      Wrong! Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:38, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      1. If the protection cascades then we have an issue:
      a) The existing small number interface admins will be responsible for all DYK, OTD, POTD, FA, FL updates. this is clearly not going to work, so:
      b) We will have to make a bunch of new interface admins. Not a good idea, the whole idea of the role is to minimize the number of people with that kind of access.
      2. If the protection does not cascade then it's not actually going to prevent a compromised admin account from vandalizing the main page, without specifying details, and in fact might make it harder slower to track down and resolve the problem.
      I think rather than misuse the interface admin permission, which sounds like a neat idea in principle but a bad one when considering the detail, something else would need to be done. I am not in favour of uncoupling admin permissions, because we have a small pool of administrators anyway and adding further obstacles to admins who (for example) have never edited the main page but want to help when they see a backlog or an issue arise will silo things up even more and make things less flexible. I don't have the right solution, but I have concerns about the proposed one for the reasons above. Fish+Karate 09:56, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      A note - an alternate mooted strategy of main-page admins (functionally granted on request, though presumably after a delay to stop immediate requests than vandalism) would seem less preferable because of a patient vandal to abuse. That said, it would also be an alternate potential method. Nosebagbear (talk)
      In short, I in theory support the idea of IAdmin protection for the Main Page, but for this to be effective subpages and included templates need to be also, which stops non-IAdmin admins maintaining the Main Page. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 22:26, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      How temporary?

      There seems to be support for the measure above but several supports are predicated on it being temporary. Seems like it would be worthwhile to have some form of consensus of how long temporary is prior to any implementation. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 06:08, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[]

      That's a pretty good question, Barkeep49. I think it can be said for certain that this change would be reverted as soon as it's fairly certain the vandalism issue has been resolved and the editing restriction is no longer needed. It's difficult to predict this; we've only been working on it for 72 hours, and it's a long weekend for US WMF staff (who have been very responsive), so the investigation is in its very early stages. Once we have more experienced eyes looking at things, including those who have the knowledge to suggest other options or methods for addressing the issues we're seeing, it's possible that a different/less intrusive option will be identified. It's also possible that after we've tried this for a few days, we find out that it's not really working. There's also the possibility that it becomes necessary to consider a permanent solution, either because no other less intrusive means has been identified to prevent this kind of vandalism, or because the efforts at vandalism haven't abated. Would it be reasonable to suggest that, if it still seems necessary to keep editing of the main page very restricted by 7 January 2019, it would be time to have a further community discussion about what options are available? These situations often take a few weeks to resolve, and there will be some extended holiday breaks in the next six weeks, so early January feels right. I'd be happy to hear other suggestions. Risker (talk) 07:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      Yes, that sounds good. The problem with emergency/quick fixes to a crisis situation is not coming back to it once the urgency is gone. I think we have enough editors watching this to avoid that. And, incidentally, thanks for keeping us informed. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:39, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      While there is some support for having this as a permanent fix, I don't believe anyone would accept that without further discussion. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:15, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]

      How long do we have to debate this before it's implemented?

      This has nearly unanimous support and it's only a temporary change. What are we waiting for? Natureium (talk) 19:27, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[]

      First, it has to be open for at least 24h, and possibly, since now it is a weekend, possibly longer. Then it needs to be closed by an uninvolved administrator. Then some technical issues need to be implemented, for which a fabricator ticket should be opened.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:32, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      Note: From the technical side - as an emergency measure I can implement it as soon as (if) you all agree that its the right thing to do (weekend or not). BWolff (WMF) (talk) 19:40, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      Great, this is good to know.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      @BWolff (WMF): can you clarify whether, if this is implemented, admins will still be edit pages transcluded onto the main page? -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:47, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[]

      Post (initial) closure

      Clarification of the closure requested. I'm not seeing the mechanics of this finalized, especially in light of active discussions about them still taking place. — xaosflux Talk 03:29, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]

      This also seems a bit rushed. Regarding the 2FA notes for interface admins, WMF is going to deal with that for now under OFFICE rules. I'm also a bit concerned about greatly increasing the number of interface admins and forcing 2FA (via the OFFICE rule) on to people that want to maintain things like DYK and ITN can have negative impacts: (a) non-technical people with technical access (b) removal from editorial tasks for admins that can't or don't want 2FA at this time. — xaosflux Talk 03:35, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      Again I don't disagree, though it still wouldn't have prevented the latest attacks and it would have prevented any admins fixing it in a hurry. Another alternative, which I'd prefer, is a bespoke software solution similar to how admins can't delete or move the main page, without all the cascading issues. -- zzuuzz (talk) 05:34, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      Good point about the slower response, but I don't see evidence that Esanchez7587 or Garzo had ever edited anything MP-transcluded, so it would have prevented 2 of the 3 latest attacks. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 05:57, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      I've now had some coffeee and a chance to think this through a bit, and I can see how this could work without a software change. We already have a number of main pages lying around which cascade-protect the main page content. I don't properly know how the system works, so someone will need to confirm, and we'll probably want more. So then we basically remove the cascade from the main main page, and apply the new protection level to the main page only without cascade. This would leave the main page content editable by sysops, which doesn't really provide any benefit. So we once again return to the question of how to protect the main page content whilst keeping it updateable without making security actually worse. -- zzuuzz (talk) 10:18, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      I think at this point, the most likely feasible idea should be a new protection level roughly based on what Callanecc said above. All edits to Mainpage directly and templates it pulls from (ITN, DYK...) should be subjected to four eyes principle; that means they must be approved by another admin before going live. It will be very hard and unlikely for a vandal to get two different admin accounts solely to bypass this restriction. Its efficacy will be the same as if all admins enabled 2FA. And with this protection level, we can safely apply the cascading and simultaneously allow all admins to edit the Mainpage and its templates normally. And the vandal's edit... will surely be caught waiting to be "approved"–Ammarpad (talk) 13:27, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      You're basically describing a version of WP:pending changes. Is it feasible to implement an admin-only version of that? ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 15:05, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      Indeed I am. If you know the basic framework of PC2 you'll know this is feasible, though I don't know how simple or hard that implementing it will be. –Ammarpad (talk) 15:53, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]

      Cascading

      One of the three main oppose reasons is the cascading issue - I thought it worth splitting out the issue of discussing whether this Int-Protect would cause knock on protection to be implemented, if those qualified to discuss such could answer. Nosebagbear (talk) 20:24, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]

      I'm not exactly following your question @Nosebagbear:. In the current software if "cascading" protection is applied whatever level is applied also gets applied to everything transcluded. — xaosflux Talk 20:29, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      There is a query in the discussions above on whether all the constituent aspects of the Main Page (DYK etc) are going to have to have this int-protection (presumably enacted via cascade) for the main page to actually be safe. It is disputed, but I wouldn't say it is made precisely clear. Since the MP is primarily made up of a bunch of transclusions, presumably more than just the MP itself will need this protection level. Nosebagbear (talk) 20:37, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      This is answered in the section just above, and we have a choice: Without cascading protection, admins can still edit the content, so there aren't any real benefits to the new protection. Using cascading int-admin protection will greatly reduce the number of people able to edit ITN/DYK/OTD and other things which are regularly updated. Alongside this is a really bad idea - increase the number of int-admins. An alternative has been proposed which is to create a new user group, and a new cascading protection level, which only allows editing content displayed on the main page. No decisions have been made, and it's not always clear above exactly what people are agreeing to. The proposal itself contains this sentence, "almost all of the work is done in the background using templates — so the impact of this temporary measure is minimal", but with cascading protection that's simply not the case. -- zzuuzz (talk) 20:51, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[]
      Wow, clarification is needed. Adding lots more intadmins to handle all details of what is transcluded on the main page would be very dubious. Further, some templates/modules are used frequently and often appear somewhere on the main page, and people would need an intadmin to update them. Johnuniq (talk) 00:49, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[]

      Closure

      Could an uninvolved admin please formally close this? Thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:09, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]

       Done. 28bytes (talk) 06:30, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Seraphim System mass deletion

      Thread stale, pages that needed restoring have been restored, no other actions being taken. Fish+Karate 12:28, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Just a heads up, it appears that Seraphim System is rage quitting, and in doing so, she is requesting the mass deletion of all her articles per WP:G7. Many of these requests were already tagged and/or actioned by CSD patrollers before her self-block, and she has requested that the deletions be completed. While I'm not sure her intent is "malice" per se, I would argue that these requests should be declined and the actioned ones overturned, as there is a 'good faith' clause in the CSD that would seem to have the intent of preventing incidents such as this. Regardless, I think the community should determine whether this mass deletion attempt is appropriate or not.  Swarm  {talk}  01:52, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      I think it is highly inappropriate and selfish, and an escalation of the WP:PRAM they immediately displayed above (take away my page-mover right and I quit [1]). As I said on Swarm's talkpage, the fact that Seraphim System consequently CSDed all of their own articles out of sheer spite, not caring that they might be useful to readers, is further evidence that the user has a major attitude problem. I recommend halting the process somehow, and allowing anyone to request a WP:REFUND of any of the already deleted articles. Softlavender (talk) 02:12, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      [edit conflict] I've undeleted several of them: two because they had significant edits from other users (thus they didn't qualify for G7 in the first place), and the rest with a citation to this section. I've intentionally left several others deleted, because I question the notability of the subjects; they're cited to blogs, places like YouTube, and primary sources, and (unlike several of the undeleted pages) they're ordinary biographies, not geo-governmental entities or individuals passing WP:POLITICIAN. Nyttend (talk) 02:25, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Given that Seraphim System seems to have agreed to rescind the deletion requests for now, I think this can be closed. Discussion about G7 in general can be done on the appropriate page. Kudos to Floquenbeam for approaching the editor with kindness on their talk page and treating them like a human worth empathizing with. 28bytes (talk) 14:09, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Yes indeed. And given that we really don't have any repeat problems with G7 nominations, I see no need to revisit the policy. If it becomes a repeat problem, sure, but it would be an over-reaction to just one (already resolved) case. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:15, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      – Joe (talk) 16:28, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Can someone reach out to User:Anthony E. Lahmann and/or sort through his edits?

      We have a new user who is making a bunch of edits that are not making sense to me. Perhaps he needs some mentoring. I have gone through some of his edits and undone some of the more obviously unhelpful ones, and have left messages on his talk page, but I will not have time tonight or tomorrow to investigate further or follow up with him. Can someone who's good with new users please help? 28bytes (talk) 00:28, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      @28bytes: I have just been working through some of them right now. A very unusual suite of edits for a newly registered user, and their recent post to the Teahouse about page protection being akin to vandalism has successfully drawn attention to them. They are suggestive of someone who has obviously edited before, presumably under another IP address and, whilst I'm currently trying to assume good faith, I am finding a few of them somewhat disruptive. I was going to reply on the WP:TH page, but will place something on their talk page instead. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:41, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
       Done Nick Moyes (talk) 01:19, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      (edit conflict) @28bytes: Indeed, multiple edits are disruptive, particularly redirects like this which I reverted. This creation spawned me to think they might have edited over at Simple, but their account is not registered there. Home Lander (talk) 01:21, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @Home Lander: Under that username, this person has only ever edited en.wiki and made one swiftly-reverted edit at it. wiki. See here. Nick Moyes (talk) 13:46, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      He has now created a new account, User:Anthony Lahmann (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), and starting up with similar edits. ~ GB fan 21:22, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      I've ifdef blocked both accounts as obvious socks and WP:NOTHERE -- RoySmith (talk) 21:52, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      (edit conflict) Both accounts blocked by RoySmith and I tagged them accordingly. Home Lander (talk) 21:56, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Thanks everyone for taking a look and acting accordingly. I had hoped we could establish a dialog with him, but if he's going to just hop to a new account and make the same sorts of edits rather than responding to anyone's legitimate concerns, a block was inevitable. 28bytes (talk) 22:52, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Porny spammy

      There've been a few tonight; User:Desmond09Y is the most recent one I've seen. Maybe some of you with some technical skills can have a look. I blocked one earlier, and so did Materialscientist. Drmies (talk) 04:53, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Probably a spam bot. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:18, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Here's another one, User talk:BruceCochrane42, just blocked by Materialscientist. Can we filter out the underlying URLs? Drmies (talk) 18:34, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Proposal to replace "Consensus Required" on American Politics articles

      Since its conception in 2016 the "Consensus Required" rule has been applied to at least 123 pages in the American Politics topic area using the template {{American politics AE}}. The rule was originally meant to be (and is still) applied as a companion to a regular 1RR restriction. In its current form the rule reads:

      Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). This includes making edits similar to the ones that have been challenged. If in doubt, don't make the edit.

      I propose that it be replaced with a less restrictive rule:

      Enforced BRD: If an edit you make is challenged by reversion you must discuss the issue on the article talk page and wait 24 hours (from the time of the original edit) before reinstating your edit.

      Rationale: The Consensus Required rule prevents some negative behaviors, but at the expense of blocking legitimate dispute resolution techniques like making new "bold" edits that address the concerns of the reverting editor. (See the "cycle" portion of Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle and the paragraph titled "However, don't get stuck on the discussion".) Freezing all reinstatements of similar material and requiring a clear talkpage consensus bogs down dispute resolution and article development, and it can even reward poor behaviors like being intransigent and refusing to compromise on talk pages (paraphrasing User:Aquillion [2]).

      The bad behavior prevented by Consensus Required (slow or tag-team edit warring) is some of the easiest behavior for admins to identify and sanction, requiring only a glance at an article's history; the tendentious talkpage behaviors rewarded by it are much harder to identify and sanction. I think the Consensus Required rule would be better used as an alternative to topic bans or blocks, to sanction individual editors who regularly engage in 1RR gaming or tag-team edit warring.

      Option 2: Another option is to simply remove Consensus-Required and leave just regular 1RR. If you prefer that please indicate so in your !vote. In any case I hope to make "Enforced BRD" an optional parameter in the {{American politics AE}} template.

      ~Awilley (talk) 16:28, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Note: I have pinged via edit summary all the admins I can find who have created the required edit notice templates while placing the Consensus Required sanction. ~Awilley (talk) 16:51, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Well, I tried to ping the admins in that edit summary, but apparently you can only ping up to 5 people at a time via edit summary. Here's try #2: User:Lord Roem User:Zzyzx11 User:El C User:Ks0stm User:Doug Weller User:TonyBallioni User:GeneralizationsAreBad User:JzG User:Laser brain User:Ad Orientem User:Beeblebrox User:KnightLago ~Awilley (talk) 02:40, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @JzG, it's either here or WP:AE. I raised this idea in a thread there a couple of weeks ago and it got comments from 7 editors and zero admins. As for audience, I pinged every admin I could find that has ever placed the sanction. (I'm assuming you're here because you got the ping?) ~Awilley (talk) 01:00, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Perhaps if you had taken it to WP:VPP, as I counseled you to do at the time, you might have gotten more feedback. IN any case, this is not merely an admin issue; the community should be involved in this. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:39, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      You're probably right about getting more feedback at VPP, although it would have had to eventually bounce back here in order to effect any change. ~Awilley (talk) 03:51, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Because the 24-hrs pairs nicely with WP:1RR and because most disputes can be resolved faster than a week ad don't need the input of all the editors of an article. BRD works well for resolving disputes between just two editors and any consensus formed by them can be examined and modified as other editors log on. ~Awilley (talk) 13:48, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      The process for changing these sanctions is outlined at Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Modifications_by_administrators. It gives 3 options: (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA. Because these sanctions (including the template) were created by individual admins (not by ArbCom) it's not necessary to go through ArbCom to modify or remove them. ~Awilley (talk) 03:40, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @Lord Roem: You you are reading it right: it does allow for the possibility of a slow-moving edit war, and that is precisely what I was talking about in paragraph #2 of the Rationale. (i.e. Slow moving edit wars are much easier for admins to identify and sanction than stonewalling on the talkpage.) Have you ever tried to sanction someone for refusing to compromise on a talk page? I haven't. It takes too much time reading through reams of bickering, and then you have to make subjective judgments because there's no bright-line rule. I think it's better for us to implement rules that naturally encourage compromise instead of rewarding stonewalling. ~Awilley (talk) 13:48, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @Awilley: I guess my sense is that the proposed change wouldn't achieve those ends and there's no evidence presented that the current wording has been detrimental. For sensitive articles in disputed topic spaces, 'freezing' or slowing down rapid change to await discussion and consensus, while definitely a lengthier process, is by all means a healthy one. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 16:08, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      However I Strong oppose for Donald Trump per my comments at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive243#Rethinking consensus-required. The consensus-required restriction has granted a great amount of stability to the article. This seems to be criticized as "freezing article development"; however the Trump article does not need to be changed greatly on a day to day basis. What this would instead leave the door open is to more discussion and RfCs, because old disputes that have been settled are reignited as someone can now change, for example "false and misleading" to just "misleading" or "lies", without violating DS, prompting yet another talk page discussion. Or: the benefit of consensus-required is not preventing slow tag team edit warring but granting stability and preventing constant needless changes and disputes on a very very high-profile article like Donald Trump; and the system of Current consensuses with fixed wording that is hammered out over lengthy talk page discussion works quite well. After all, articles are meant to represent consensus and single editors should not generally overturn a consensus garnered through a wide RfC. The Trump article really does not suffer from intransigence, either; because one can easily garner a consensus within a day or two, one or two "bad" editors cannot do much to stop legitimate improvements. Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:31, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Galobtter, well, your comment here raises a few issues with this proposal: namely, discretionary sanctions are just that, discretionary, and even in those 123 articles, there are some where this is likely very useful. While Coffee did place this somewhat indiscriminately, others actually thought hard before applying the now standard AP2 DS in an area. Every article where I placed this on it was intentional, and I don't see any harm in keeping it, and would oppose removing them because we went a bit more active with the template than was necessary. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:07, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Yeah, certainly in many cases it is useful; however, I feel that in a lot of cases 1RR itself is quite enough to stop edit warring, and consensus-required adds some extra mental burden to editors editing an article that has to be justified. And certainly, determining which articles consensus-required is useful or not will require individual examination. So definitely, if consensus-required is going to be removed from some of the articles as I suggested above, it will be have to be a carefully considered some. Galobtter (pingó mió) 16:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Struck strong oppose per my my comments here, which (if you don't want to read the wall of text), TL;DR down to: as long as it is clear that prior clear consensus's are binding, I'm not super opposed to changing to "enforced BRD". Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:30, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @Gonnym: WP:BRD is not an essay. It is "an explanatory supplement to the Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:Be bold pages" (core policy and editing guideline, respectively). The consensus-required restriction, on the other hand, does enforce something that goes beyond current WP policy or guidelines. ~Awilley (talk) 15:36, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Same difference. --Gonnym (talk) 16:43, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      • Comment: Awilley, ArbCom has basically made this proposal moot now. Most of the banners were placed by Coffee, who is no longer an admin, which means they can be modified by any admin. You could undertake a review of articles he placed under DS and selectively modify them as Galobtter has suggested. If you do, I would suggest having a workspace in your userspace where people can comment where they don't think changing the DS would be ideal. This also has the advantage of not changing the sanction en masse, especially when the admin who placed it is still active. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:41, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Thank you. My hope in starting this thread was that I could convince the admins who had previously placed this sanction of a better alternative and thereby preserve some uniformity in the topic area. In hindsight I wonder if selectively canvassing only the admins who thought highly enough of CR to appy it doomed this to go down in a pile-on. Sorry, that was rude of me.~Awilley (talk) 15:54, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Speaking as one of those admins, I will not be removing any of the CR sanctions I have placed and will continue to use it with 1RR when I feel active sanctions are necessary. No one has come up with a good suggested replacement for it in any attempt in any topic area, and all of the proposed replacements are substantially worse (including this one.) If modifications were to be made, I think removing all active sanctions from specific articles where they are no longer needed would be much better. The issue with this sanction is that it was overused, not that it doesn’t work. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:04, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Policy on schoolblocks?

      Per Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Complaints, we probably need to discuss current practices and see whether we need a policy on what is the duration of schoolblocks.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:51, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      I personally, if I block an IP for vandalism (and for this, vandalism must be persistent, not just one edit), I add the talk page to my watchlist. If I see other user posting vandalism warnings, I check the contributions, and if I see IP has no constructive contributions, I progressively block up to a year, and then for a year. I never check whether this is a school or not. Possibly other users have better practices than mine.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:51, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I look at the block history of the IP and the edits. If there is a substantial pattern of vandal edits and blocks, I will escalate to the next longest length of time in the block, especially if the edits are on the heels of a block being lifted. With almost all of the blocks not having Account Creation turned off, this still gives an avenue for legitimate edits, through an account. RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:09, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      My practices reflect the above. I will, first, check to see if the IP address belongs to an obvious educational institution, but even if it doesn't if there is a pattern of frequent vandalism with no intervening good edits, I block (allowing for account creation) with progressively longer blocks. --Jayron32 17:32, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I personally don't dogmatically always progressively increase block lengths, and am not always particularly impressed when this is done. Actually I'm not impressed when any admin behaviour is based on previous admin behaviour. If there's been, say 2 edits in the last 2 years, then I might block for a day or two. If they soon return then they'll soon be blocked again. If a school is always problematic then I don't see a problem with blocks lasting several years. I'll often stop account creation, having seen many checkusers adjust many schoolblocks in the past. But related, I think you need to distinguish different types of school IP. Elementary schools are just going to be stupid when the kids are around but you can probably actually allow account creation. Some secondary schools are usually well behaved apart from one or two idiots who will be caught and punished. Others are just obviously places of eternal anarchy. So no automatic increases for me - take a look at the evidence as a whole. -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:04, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Pile on here. I don't automatically increase the block length either. I try for the shortest period that will stop the disruption. Particularly in April or May, when the school term is likely to end in North America, I'll only block for a month or two because there's no point in having an IP blocked that won't be used until August or September. However, if there's disruption coming in short order off a six-month block, with a block log as long as my arm, I'll block for a year. Katietalk 22:17, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Complaints is not a reason to consider anything about policy. You had users edit warring through the same IP with one of the user's asking for it to be blocked. 1 That doesn't fit the normal situations. It was also an anonblock and the complainant had an account but was choosing not to use it. He doesn't make more than a handful of edits per week and nearly none of it is academic in nature. He had no real need so he can edit as anon from home or use his account at the school. The pretense of schools having a different status would be based on academic edits which does not apply here. That complaint is not the impetus for policy changes. Deny the drama.
       — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:33, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Closure of RfC: Nikola Tesla's birthplace

      I would like to challenge the closure of this RfC: [3]

      My reasoning is the following:

      1. I feel that this RfC was closed prematurely. The closing editor also gives some grounds to that complaintment. To quote him: "The one objection that could be made is that the discussion was closed too early...". I indeed think it was closed to early, as no previously uninvolved editors had time to notice the discussion and join in. Only the editors that I have canvassed have participated.

      2. I unintentionally made a case of canvassing here, and if you read the discussion, you will see that even the editors who disagreed with me in the discussion have pointed that out. I feel that it would be a good idea to have an opinion of a few previously uninvolved editors to fix the problem that I have created.

      3. Although the RfC started by me posting one source, it was soon agreed by me and other editors that this souce can be viewed as OR or SYNTH. Other editors have asked for a specific source that I need, but when I have provided that source, it was hardly discussed. It would be a good idea to have some more time so this new source can be discussed. I see that almost no one reflected on the 2nd source, now when I'm rereading.

      4. The closing editor didn't reflect on the new source at all, but had closed the RfC on the arguments other editors made about the 1st source, SYNTH, OR. The reason he missed to reflect on the second source may be in the chronological order of posts. If you read from the top to bottom, the discussion may look a lot different than when you read chronologically.

      5. I feel that the request made by this RfC is pretty simple and it is my opinion that there shouldn't be that much opposition. I have tried to summarize my stand in the last post, maybe you can read that post first and then the whole discussion (if you don't feel that this would temper with the chronology) Bilseric (talk) 19:59, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      I see your point. It's my mistake, because I'm not that experienced. But what was really frustrating is that they were saying:"what you need is this and that source", and when I spent my time providing it , they didn't reflect on it. I can understand your explanation, but if the RfC was opened for a little more time, new editors would notice the new source. It is still frustrating to see the above post where the user User:Binksternet is reflecting to the old source, and neglecting the new one. If I could redo it, I would put the purposal as I put it in my last post. Would it be possible to leave this RfC closed and open a new one which puts a clear single purposal as I did in my last post? No one reflected on the 2nd source anyways in this RfC. Bilseric (talk) 20:56, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Yes, that is certainly possible, but not necessarily advisable to do it so soon after the first RfC. If I'm reading the situation correctly a lot of editors are getting fed up with all the noise you have been making about this. ~Awilley (talk) 01:03, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Ok. I agree with everything you said. It is my fault for altering the RfC. That caused no one to put opinion on the alternative purposal (the 2nd source). I did it after I have accepted valid objections about the 1st source. I would really like that the alternative purposal is discussed, but I agree that opening this bulky discussion would be just be confusing to new editors. A better solution would be another RfC which is just putting forward the 2nd source that wasn't discussed in this RfC. I really am not in a hurry. It can be opened in a few months. It would be even better if someone else would open it, not me, if anyone would be willing to do it.Bilseric (talk) 08:32, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Please. This is not the continuation of the RFC. You don't need to repeat yourself or continue with the dispute. But, how can you argue that "The RfC closure should stand as is" and in the same time say this: " your arguments became unimportant to me.". If the 2nd source and my arguments were unimportant to you, we should definately allow others to participate. You are now basically arguing that only your opinion is important and that we don't need other opinions. It's not in the spirit of Wikipedia. Bilseric (talk) 07:53, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Uploading files without summaries and/or licences continuously

      Are there any practices in place for editors who continue to upload files without the respective copyright summaries and/or licences? Especially those who have received dozens of notifications on their talk page and still continue to upload them without the correct non-free rationale? The above user's talk page has 25 such notifications since March (that I can tell), and is still receiving such notices after they don't pay attention to them. -- AlexTW 23:36, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Looking at the deleted contributions, I think a topic ban from image uploads is in order. Guy (Help!) 23:42, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I've dropped them a final warning about bad image uploads. If they do it again, let me know and I'll indef them -FASTILY 04:33, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Cheers for that; I've got their talk page on my watchlist, so I'll let you know when I know. -- AlexTW 06:20, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Maybe it might help to talk to this guy in text if the templates don't work. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 07:05, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Jo-Jo Eumerus, I have already posted on their talk page in a discussion manner concerning this topic, and the editor has edited since without replying to the message. The editor is also known for their disruptive editing, such as mass removals then going in the opposite direction the very next day with oversized additions, and adding unsourced information just because other editors have done it. Looking at their complete contribution history since January, they have only ever used a talk page (their own) once. -- AlexTW 08:51, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Benjaminzyg Appeal

      Not going anywhere Legacypac (talk) 04:58, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Should you guys let Benjaminzyg welcomed back because he stopped sockpuppetery and he want his account back. I wish for lot of support on this one because I don’t want any bad comment on this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.159.52.47 (talk) 04:50, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Drmies, that account is globally locked so no one may log into it and they cannot send emails from it. Same thing for the account that he wants back. I imagine that he might could pull a Lazarus and be resurrected on the MrSunshine83 account which isn't locked....for what that might be worth.
       — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:14, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      I agree that I can transfer my account into MrSunshine83 but will it be the same as Benjaminzyg account? I think a move is a very good idea.2001:8003:DC1C:9E00:D044:2E68:DF56:D78A (talk) 03:48, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Reduce a block I placed

      Six years ago, I found a proxy IP address, User:87.97.157.121, that was indef-blocked, and since we generally don't block IPs indefinitely, I replaced the indefinite block with a block of a define length: 9 decades, 9 years, 364 days, 23 hours, 49 minutes and 12 seconds. But now I'm informed that we shouldn't place long definite blocks either. Could someone reduce this block to whatever the normal time is for a proxy? Thank you. Nyttend (talk) 19:50, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Creative abuse of policy! ;) I've unblocked, the IP address no longer appears to be an open proxy. Of course anyone is free to re-block if it turns out I'm wrong. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:58, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Wikipedia:Blocking_IP_addresses#Open_proxies suggests "several years" as a typical maximum. it's past the statute of limitations, but replacing an indef with a 100-year block is a :/ from me Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:03, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      (ec) : I edit-conflicted trying to unblock it. My research shows it is not an open proxy. 6 months would have been in any case more than sufficient.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:03, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Thank you. Now I see that I misread something (I placed the indef), but regardless :-) Good to see that it needed the unblock. Nyttend (talk) 20:06, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Digging a little deeper, this address seems to have belonged to a now-defunct ISP, so it may indeed have been an open proxy when you blocked it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:09, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      According to my calculations, this IP still belongs to the same webhost, and a neighbouring server, alpha.root.bg (http://87.97.157.120) is still up. That said, I don't see any particular need to keep it blocked. -- zzuuzz (talk) 21:20, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      This thread is ironic. Last evening something led me to this page - Wikipedia:Database reports/Indefinitely blocked IPs - and I messaged a few admins who had placed blocks within the last year. The responses were mixed, ranging from "yes, that was accidental" to that it's fine to leave proxies blocked indefinitely. Is there actual policy that these should not be indef? If so, there's a lot of work to do. Home Lander (talk) 21:32, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      WP:PPP, I'd say; I've never seen it written out, but we've never indef-blocked IPs (as far as I'm aware), except open proxies and truly exceptional abuse cases, and it runs in my head that we've stopped indeffing open proxies in the last few years. (Otherwise nobody would have created the indeffed-IPs report, for example; there's no such report for accounts, as far as I know.) Maybe it could be added to policy, but I don't quite see the point, since policy would have a hard time encapsulating the oddball situations that really do need indefinite blocks. Nyttend (talk) 21:48, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Yes, there's an enormous amount of work to do. There has been for many years. Policy (practice), I think, is fairly well established these days. And the written policy doesn't actually outright forbid indefinite blocks, or blocks lasting 100 years, but it sure discourages them. So any help clearing up these historical issues is welcome. But I'll tell you where there's a sticking point with some of the existing blocks - a number of indefinitely blocked open proxies are still open proxies, or at least webhosts, many years later. -- zzuuzz (talk) 21:50, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      DCsghost‎

      There's an outstanding unblock request requiring review at user talk:DCsghost, where Bbb23 just removed TPA. Guy (Help!) 23:23, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      I left a note at Bbb's talk ("is this what you meant?"), since removing talk page access and not-handling an unblock request don't normally go together. Nyttend (talk) 00:02, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Guy pinged me and Nyttend left messages on my Talk page. Hence my comments. I revoked TPA because of the disruptive unblock requests. At the same time, it takes more than what Dcsghost is doing for me to remove the unblock request, and as the blocking admin, I can't decline it.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:25, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I've declined the request. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:07, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Wikid77

      Closing the first section. There is consensus that the indefinite block by Cullen328 has been endorsed. The discussion over whether or not to impose topic ban (as part of unblock condition if the user chooses to appeal, which has not been clearly expressed in User talk:Wikid77) or site ban over the account of Wikid77 will ensue in #Site ban or topic ban?. Alex Shih (talk) 09:46, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Wikid77 is a frequent commentator at User talk:Jimbo Wales. I have given this editor an indefinite block for "espousing racist revisionism in support of slavery." I gave them a shorter block a few weeks back for similar behavior. Since Jimbotalk is the closest thing that we have to a free speech zone on Wikipedia, I would appreciate a community review of this block. Thank you. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      @Cullen328: this user's history on Jimbo's talk is setting alarm bells ringing for me, and their polemic there is genuinely problematic. Given that this comment (which I assume was the trigger for your block) is essentially revisionist polemic, I think they needed to be blocked. That said, they've made constructive contributions elsewhere, so I don't think we're at the point of a NOTHERE permablock: but I wouldn't accept a "sorry I won't do it again" unblock request either, because the tendency to peddle this sort of crap runs deep. As such, I think we should discuss a topic ban from racial issues and slavery, broadly construed, as a precondition for any unblock. Vanamonde (talk) 05:10, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      His numerous disturbing, hair-raising, and thinly disguised hateful/racist posts on Jimbotalk have come up before. I'd be curious what if anything his unblock appeal states. I think one condition of any unblock should be a topic ban from Jimbotalk. The community has put up with enough of his spewing hatred and nonsense already. Softlavender (talk) 05:53, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Where will he post instead? Legacypac (talk) 05:58, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      How about dev/null? -- Calton | Talk 07:20, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      For those who are unfamiliar with Wikid77's comments on JIMBOTALK, Wikid77 has also complained about not being able to use the N-word; I quote: "In fact to white Americans, the word "nigger" had come to mean a "hardworking servant" rather than an obstinate negro, and a white man might have said about mowing and trimming hedges, "I'll be a yard nigger all morning today" with zero reference to black skin, just the work. Since the "N-word" has been banned, other words have been invented to refer to black people who are organizing against whites (say no more)."
      While OTOH they do do some constructive work on the 'pedia (their last 5000 contributions are almost entirely citation fixes with the remaining mostly being comments on JIMBOTALK); however I at-least don't particularly have a desire to someone who espouses such things unblocked (although if so, certainly a topic ban from race and slavery and/or from JIMBOTALK should be imposed) Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:14, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      You're kidding. "hardworking servant"? You can't make this shit up. Drmies (talk) 17:48, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I wish I was.. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:15, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Question: How often does Jimbo block/ ban problematic editors? Or even engage with cranky editors to any depth? Someone here with more facility may be able to find a number of, and for what reasons he usually (if ever) "throws down" with other editors. (scary quotes for effect only) I myself am more inclined to ignore obnoxious comments and let them stand on their own "merit," unless the comments are overt attack edits to the mainspace or on talk pages directed at an identifiable target. That's never cool, agreed? In the case of such comments at Jimmy's talk page, other editors are more than happy to "take out the trash" when needs be. We do it for love. Regards, Hamster Sandwich (talk) 05:00, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      ​The last time someone tried to "take out the trash" on Jimmy's talk, this was the result. To repeat myself, since that's generally one of the first userpages external visitors and new editors look at, and when it looks like this (permalink to the current revision of the page at the time of posting) they're quite reasonably going to assume that if this kind of racist ranting is tolerated by Jimmy Wales, this kind of racist ranting is tolerated by Wikipedia as a whole, and that this isn't a site with which they want to have any involvement. Because of Jimmy's position and his constant self-promotion as "the public face of Wikipedia", his talkpage is a de facto public-facing page. ‑ Iridescent 06:50, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      What I see at the top of that section "Prescient comments" are a couple of declarative statements by Jimmy that go to the heart of his feelings on the matter of racist commentary versus racism in the historical context of articles included in the project. My reading of his comments then, and in the present are clear, and they should provide direction to any editors interested in maintaining the integrity of the project. I cannot comment in any depth on the particular editor who has generated this notice, I am only really familiar with them from their comments at Jimbo's talk page where I felt he was merely a fringe type of revisionist whose comments held very little weight. Forgive my intrusion here, but I was compelled to comment on this matter, as a poster to the thread which has caused part of this ongoing commentary. I shall burden you no further with this, except to say, I wish someone clever would go over to that talk page and put up a picture of a goat tied to a stick. Go ahead, it's my post. You have my permission. Regards, Hamster Sandwich (talk) 23:44, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Site ban or topic ban?

      (non-admin closure) Closing this, as all the elements of the third point of WP:CBAN have been met, meaning the Wikid77 is community banned from Wikipedia. Please do not re-open this unless you have a rock-solid policy-based reason to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:12, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Since a number of people have mentioned both possibilities, I'll go ahead and propose them both, and let's see where that leaves us. Note: I've added "ethnicity" to the topic-ban as a preemptive measure against potential arguments that some related topics are about ethnicity and not race. Vanamonde (talk) 16:16, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      • Topic ban: Wikid77 is topic-banned indefinitely from race, ethnicity, and slavery, broadly construed. They may appeal this ban after a minimum of six months.

      Pinging @Cullen328, Softlavender, Legacypac, Calton, Galobtter, Fram, Winged Blades of Godric, Davey2010, Guettarda, Boing! said Zebedee, and Iridescent: from the above discussion. Vanamonde (talk) 16:16, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      @Black Kite:I can't see these actions, either in the redirect history, nor the user's contributions. Am I missing something that only admins can see? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 11:51, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @PaleCloudedWhite: The first versions (which did indeed direct to Free negro) were deleted before the current ones were recreated, so only admins can see them now. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:10, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      • Wikid77 was one of the very first Wikipedians I had a meaningful exchange with more than 10 years ago, but this is deeply troubling. In addition to the Irish slavery comments that started this, there are others like:
      If this were a one-off, I'd be straining to AGF while looking for some explanation and assurances. This, however, looks sadly like a pattern and is incompatible with the environment we want to create here. Thus, site ban. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:00, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Argh. I came back to revise the above. I had given it some thought and figured it would make more sense to issue a broad topic ban on all race-related content on any page, with a possible fixed-term block on top of it. Now that I get here and start typing, however, I see this thoroughly tone-deaf comment on Wikid77's talk page. Thought about swapping out "site ban" for "indef" but he just isn't showing any signs of getting it such that the potential for harm here is too great... — Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:25, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      That works for me. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:29, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Ad Orientem, where are you seeing this solid record of non-controversial contributions, as (per my post above) I looked fairly hard and can't see it? Going over his recent edits, I can see a lot of pointless minor edits (adding/removing whitespace and the like), the racist trolling that prompted this thread, regular weather reports for Florida posted at Jimbotalk (baffling, as neither he nor Jimmy lives in Florida so I'm not sure why the interest), and virtually nothing else in recent years. ‑ Iridescent 21:43, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      He has been here since 2006, amassing 61k edits. 73% of those are in the mainspace. Approximately 5% are on user talk pages. I haven't any means of breaking down what percentage of those are clearly disruptive but I am guessing not more than half. And those obviously being on the subjects of race and slavery. This is not a case of NOTHERE. Their disruptive editing is clearly limited to a handful of specific topics and represents a very small percentage of their over all contributions. In short, this is an editor who has some seriously F---ed up opinions which do not appear to be a major component of their work here. So again, unless we are punishing them for their views, I think the argument for a site ban is pretty weak. This is what T Bans are supposed to be used for. However, I will agree that any violation of the T Ban should end with an immediate indef. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:57, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Ad Orientem, he may once have been a productive editor (joined more than 12 years ago!), but he has not been for the past several years. Where are any constructive contributions from the past few years? Softlavender (talk) 22:04, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      (edit conflict) He has been here since 2006, amassing 61k edits. 73% of those are in the mainspace is true but extremely misleading. He has a high percentage of mainspace edits because he makes so many of the minor edits I mentioned earlier (have a look at his recent history and see for yourself), and because he generally refuses to engage with other editors so he has few talk/usertalk contributions (he has twice as many contributions to User talk:Jimbo Wales than to every other user talk page combined, including his own). As far as I can tell, since the sockpuppetry in 2010 that earned him his existing topic ban, he has almost no substantive edits, and those that he did make seem to be things like this which were promptly reverted as inappropriate. Per my remarks above, for someone who's an obvious positive it's potentially worth wasting the time of everyone else trying to find ways in which a racist can still contribute without being in a position where their racism creates a chilling effect for other editors, but the onus is on those making "we can't afford to lose him!" claims to demonstrate that this is someone we actually want around. As I said above, because he refuses to use the "minor edit" checkbox it makes it difficult to search his contributions for anything positive, but thus far nobody has provided a single example. ‑ Iridescent 22:12, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Figure out how to rein in the dumbassery would be justification for the suggested topic ban. And rejecting the belief that all humanity is on some level equal is rather counter to the assumptions that are behind the goals of this encyclopedia: if humanity is not equal then some races cannot be trusted to improve the site and some races should not even have access free knowledge. It's not simply political correctness, stop enabling racism. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:30, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Fantastic example of a strawman argument there, with a little PC sloganeering tossed in for good measure. Well done! Carrite (talk) 16:23, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Actually you pinged a blocked user not User:Jimbo Wales Legacypac (talk) 07:42, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Ooops. It proves how much I hang around J'Ws talk page. I don't even know his name! Simon Adler (talk) 15:02, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I am aware of that aspect of the situation Softlavender. However, as comments were posted to a colleague's talkpage, I think the talkpage trustee (we don't own T/P's obviously) should be invited to give his views on the comments posted there. Simon Adler (talk) 04:53, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Plenty more reasons have been found in this thread if you'd bother to read it. The rejection of the belief that humanity is on some level equal is fundamentally incompatible with this site's goals of allowing anyone regardless of their race to contribute to or learn from this encyclopedia. Stop enabling racism. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:33, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      You, Ian.thomson need to stop hectoring your opponents in this discussion and to stop spamming the same self-righteous slogans to multiple people. Carrite (talk) 16:20, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Opponents? You need to stop enabling racism -- racism isn't righteous, opposing racism isn't self-righteous. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:46, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I won't be !voting, because at least two of the prior discussions show me directly addressing Wikid77 on this (one of which I did not remember), but I think Wnt has misrepresented the issues. Wikid77 seems to posit that the weight of facts of slavery's history are somehow a slur on the "white" race, and/or a slur on the Confederacy. He also seems to object to people calling those and similar comments "racist", when yes, those comments are racist, and people do have a right to call those comments racist. As for those Wikipedians of "mixed race" in Wikid77's latest comment, well that seems to be an attack on those of us who may be of "mixed race". -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:40, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Pudeo, are you seriously trying to claim that the word "nigger" isn't considered racist in the United States? ‑ Iridescent 18:15, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      ??? That's not the word he used above! "Negro" has also fallen out of favor (though not as far!), for reasons that aren't very obvious to me. Still, it seems fair enough as it goes - I wouldn't use "Caucasian" to mean "white", after all, since you'd think I meant someone from the Republic of Georgia. Returning to the use of simple shades (in English rather than Spanish, I mean) may even be a way to help put the racist toys back in the box. Wnt (talk) 12:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Have you even read any of the diffs here? This isn't a discussion about Pudeo using the term "negro", this is a discussion about Wikid77 (among many other things) complaining that he's no longer allowed to call black people 'niggers". "In fact to white Americans, the word "nigger" had come to mean a "hardworking servant" rather than an obstinate negro, and a white man might have said about mowing and trimming hedges, "I'll be a yard nigger all morning today" with zero reference to black skin, just the work. Since the "N-word" has been banned, other words have been invented to refer to black people who are organizing against whites (say no more)." ‑ Iridescent 16:22, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      This site rather requires the assumption that race or ethnicity in no way inhibit or disqualify one from learning from or adding to the encyclopedia -- an idea that is simply incompatible with racism. Stop enabling racism. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:37, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      So a Confederate sympathizer who doesn't think the N word is racist is exactly the sort of person black people love to hang around with? Now, my home town is only 42% black but that's generally not been my experience. Racism doesn't need your protection. It isn't simply about protection but common decency -- maybe you could try showing some. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:14, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      That's quite enough. Everyone is well aware of your stance. You don't need to bludgeon every comment, and assert moral justice in a thread that's already heading toward a site ban. If you want to fight to good fight, go write an article on an underrepresented group. That's the kindof thing people who actually give a shit are busy doing. Opinions are cheap, and the last time I tried to put together a spreadsheet, I believe only about 3% of our featured biographies were about people who are black. GMGtalk 19:36, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      People who defend racists often think their hands are clean of racism. They need to know their hands have just has much burnt cross ash on them, even if they otherwise keep their noses clean. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:54, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Ah yes. And an order of magnitude more people feel that publicly expressing personal outrage washes their hands, and absolves them of doing anything that might actually address the problem. Plenty of people talking round the dinner table, nobody showing up for the city council meeting. When you get done expressing your feelings, gimme the diffs, and I'll let you know how many articles that makes about the 42% of your neighbors who apparently need to be a professional athlete or win the Nobel Prize in order to get a featured article on Wikipedia. GMGtalk 21:00, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Just because something doesn't meet your ideal doesn't mean that it's worthless. I could reverse this and say that writing articles is a waste compared to off-site actions (while implying that you're doing nothing there with just as much evidence as you have to imply that's the case for me) but I'm not as interested in a "I'm helping more" dick-measuring contest as you are. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:29, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      You can certainly reverse it, but if you want to argue that writing articles is a waste of time, then you shouldn't be here. Goodbye, and you're welcome to come back when you feel otherwise. GMGtalk 22:24, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      • Site ban, per WP:NOTHERE. This diff is really something [7]. "Be thankful for the black slaves who worked to protect the Confederacy (...) who then returned to Dixie to rebuild from the ruins and mourn their owner families..." & "Well, check the facts of imagined 'ill treatment' of African Americans, who actually often lived in the master's house..." -- what in the world? --K.e.coffman (talk) 19:32, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      • No action per Wnt and Carrite. We could consider taking strong action against an editor who posts talk page comments that are so problematic that they need to be removed, also from the edit history of the page. E.g. an editor who has the habit of getting into disputes with others and then starts to insult his opponents, makes legal threats, posts personal information etc. etc. But Wikid77's behavior on Jimbo's talk page is nothing of this sort. His comments can still be found on Jimbo's talk page and Jimbo is quite strict with removing inappropriate comments. Wikid77's comments violate the hypersensitive US social norms on racial matters. He may indeed be wrong about some issues, his overall attitude is similar to going to Saudi Arabia and advocating atheism there. Now, however we dislike the way he discusses topics related to race, we have to acknowledge that he isn't a racist himself. It's actually the attitude of society to be hypersensitive about discussing race openly that has led to the former racists to use their methods against other targets. The problematic behavior underlying racism is tolerated in the US. Gays were the victim until recently, it was ok. for politicians to make discriminatory laws against gays. And when gay rights were settled, the former racists move on to transgender people, inflicting great damage to their cause with impunity. Poor people have always been fair game, not only are you free to insult them, you can make laws that makes it impossible for them to get health care. The politicians responsible for doing that are not formally racists because they don't talk about race, but their actions do end up killing many people of backgrounds they don't care much about. Wikipedians defending these people will not be banned or blocked. No, the real Adolf Hitlers are always respected and tolerated when they wield power, you'll be kicked out of Wikipedia based on BLP violations if you dare to call a spade a spade on such far more relevant issues. Count Iblis (talk) 20:30, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      No action from Jimbo's page:

      I agree with Wnt.  Those who are so eager to have Wikid77 site-banned for making "racist" comments, might want to consult the definition of racist.  From our article racism:  "Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity."  A similar definition for "racist" from Google is "a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another."  Do you have any diffs where you can show that he (or the material in his comments) either: (1) believes that one race is superior to another -or- (2) has shown discrimination or prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity?
      Although I certainly disagree with some of his comments (especially his apology of Roseanne Barr's racist joke and his desire for "free speech" here) and find some of his comments either naive or insensitive (e.g. [8]), calling his comments so racist as to site-banning him is a stretch. 
      Many of his claims about the Confederacy he posted on Jimbo's talk page in the section "Prescient comments" he backed up with WP:RS. I do see some level of Neo-Confederate#Historical_revisionism, but what I believe is most important in our discussions at Wikipedia is sticking to the best sources and following WP:NPOV, which I believe he thought he was doing. I did not see any of those who attacked his comments as "racist" as providing better sources that disagreed; instead, I believe the objections are based primarily on editors' feeling that the statements are racist based on what they have been taught about the Civil War--possibly from unreliable sources--rather than doing the harder work of looking at the sources.
      One of the sources Wikid77 used was Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America written by William C. Davis who is described as a Pulitzer Prize winning professor of history with Civil War emphasis. Our article on Davis has no controversy section one would expect of a Neo-Confederate historical revisionist.
      Besides, if the comments are so offensive, why not simply remove them?  Then the discussion could be over whether the comment violated our rules.   --David Tornheim (talk) 23:04, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      P.S. My oppose has nothing to do with free speech--more fully explained in my answer to Beyond My Ken immediately below.--David Tornheim (talk) 23:42, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      (*)Note: Ken Burns's The Civil War with 39 million viewers is criticized by historians (e.g. "Faced with the choice between historical illumination or nostalgia, Burns consistently opts for nostalgia.") I believe many in the U.S. get their information about the Civil War from sources like these or worse. --David Tornheim (talk) 00:28, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      The Second Pillar of Wikipedia says:
      We strive for articles in an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight with respect to their prominence...In some areas there may be just one well-recognized point of view; in others, we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately and in context rather than as "the truth" or "the best view". [Emphasis added.]
      The policy Neutral Point of View echoes this:
      "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." [Emphasis added.]
      It seems to me you are giving editors the green light to omit minority opinions in reliable sources that make them uncomfortable. Is that true? --David Tornheim (talk) 01:03, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Really? It seems to me that you're conception of how Wikipedia works is in direct contradiction to reality, but I'll be damned if I'm going to spend the time to teach the ABCs to someone who should know better. In any case, you're wrong. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:12, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Yes. I saw some quotes like that too. Why not post that on Jimbo's page to challenge his writing rather than call him a racist? I believe that is how we should argue material on Wikipedia, not based on our personal beliefs. What I saw Wikid77 doing was showing the side we typically do not get in the Ken Burns version of the Civil War, that there were some moderates in the South in high positions. That Wikid77 claims that Confederacy was moderate with regard to slavery certainly does not jive with the whole of Davis. I agree. So yes, I do see cherry-picking from Davis to try to make a conclusion not in Davis. Mostly, my position is we should argue from the sources, point out the problems with use of sources, rather than just calling someone a racist for an opinion that looks wrong. At the same time, I do agree that we are not here for personal opinions or WP:OR --David Tornheim (talk) 01:35, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      No. I should not have to follow this nonsense around to reply to it. It's gross misuse of sources, and of Wikipedia, and then you pop up to defend it because apparently to you it's just great to misrepresent clear and obvious racism -- what's not to understand about, "it was founded on the bedrock doctrine of racial inferiority". Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:47, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I'm not defending his behavior and posts. In fact, I said that I do not agree with many of his statements, and I am critical of them. I'm opposed to the knee-jerk reaction of site-banning this long-term editor for some recent objectionable posts rather than (1) making him correct, strike, or delete his posts by adjusting them to be based on what is in the best WP:RS (2) asking him to remove posts that are racially insensitive (3) asking him to refrain from polemics on race--including on Jimbo's page if Jimbos dislikes it--and focus on editing or the other work he does on Wikipedia.
      This very much reminds me of when a liberal African-American professor was banned for instructing students (as part of WikiEdu) to edit in his topic of expertise--environmental racism. His belief is that editors here are uncomfortable in talking objectively and factually about race issues. I agree. I am very curious what he would say about this if he had not been banned. See Racial bias on Wikipedia. --David Tornheim (talk) 02:35, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      In fact, you 'are defending him, and at great and tedious length. I don't know if you believe the stuff you're writing, or if you just enjoy being a contrarian, but I think we've heard more than enough of your defense of racism in the name of free speech -- which despite your denial, is precisely what it is. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:16, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      You specifically defended his misuse of Davis, and apparently his misuse of Davis also misled you to defend what he was saying (how many others were so misled by his misuse), nor do you seem to have done the study of why his comments on 19th-century American and Confederate slavery are racist, because if you had done the study you would know racism was in the warp and woof of the institution. Now, you say I should follow him around to clean-up his misuse of sources, I suppose so you won't be misled. Seems he should be stopped from misleading you and others in the first place, because I and others can't and won't always be there to actually read the sources for you. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:26, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      With the reply to your comments above and my reply elsewhere (that I assume you've read), we're left with the question of what does Wikid77 base his opinions on? Certainly nothing that qualifies as a secondary reliable source for article purposes. I've been involved with debating neo-confederates long before I started on wikipedia and, with the exception of the Irish slave crap, 77 is providing nothing new. Like Alanscottwalker and many other editors who follow the slavery, civil war, etc articles, we know what the reliable sources are and can, and do when appropriate, argue from them. You and 77 have not shown that you have the knowledge or willingness to do so.
      His opinions are fringe and have little value as guidance to writing useful wikipedia articles. Community consensus is, and should be, against him. There is certainly evidence that he writes things that people expect would come from the mouths of racist -- in fact they do come from other racists. It reflects poorly on Wikipedia if he is allowed, without consequence or even acknowledgement from 77, to tendentiously mouth the words that most people here are finding to be racist. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 02:04, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I am very glad that the U.S. government is founded on a principle of free speech, because it is an inalienable right and a good idea for running any organization. But to suggest that therefore this is only of relevance to them is a basic categorical error, and obviously in conflict with WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:N and other Wikipedia policies. Wikipedia needs free speech for much the same reasons as the U.S. does; because without it, you have a dictatorship. And how do you organize volunteers to do collective encyclopedia writing in a dictatorship??? To be sure, the association of the U.S. with free speech ideals has some relevance -- Wikipedia started here for a reason. I hope it's not racist to say that. Wnt (talk) 12:01, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I argued at quite some length on Jimbo's page against banning "pedophilia advocacy" for much the same reasons. At the time there were some countries like Yemen making the news for having radically different opinions from the U.S. on the topic, and I didn't want to set up an official Wikipedia standard that their country was "wrong", though wiping it out with famine, cholera, and bombs works also. As far as Holocaust denial ... if Wikipedians can't defeat a Holocaust denier in fair and open argument we ought to just pack it in. And the very, very last thing we need is some notion to generalize censorship to anything and everything that a person with a different opinion says is "disreputable". Wnt (talk) 11:52, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @Wnt: But we're not talking about defeating a Holocaust denier in fair and open argument -- we're talking about a Holocaust denier regularly sneaking references to how the Jews keep pretending like the Holocaust was a bigger deal than it actually was and people are falling for it because they control the media into discussions, while posing as a reputable member of the Wikipedia community. We don't engage such individuals in open argument, but rather show them the door. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:02, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      If that is what you were talking about, I wouldn't be opposing this motion. There is nothing all that unusual about showing anyone the door when they lie about what the sources say in an article in order to push their own point of view. The problem is, here you seem to be pushing for action against this editor because he made some comments, a bit strange but apparently largely true, on Jimbo's talk page. That's just a bad precedent I don't want. Nor do I want to see the editor penalized more harshly for things that previously went to ANI because that would be transparently a way of doing the same thing. I am not even eager to see him punished harshly for acts of frustration like this, though it is hard to argue that it was a useful redirect. (It is also hard to argue that we really needed the old version deleted so that only a clueless automatic tagging robot and an old-fashioned honest Logs feature not yet fully adapted to keep the doings of the gods to themselves give any indication of the untoward comment) I do admit a suspicion that we are being manipulated here, for example that there might be a "good hand" account doing new mainspace edits while this one goes out in a martyr's glory, but I can't prove that, and the most straightforward way to not make martyrs is, well, not to make martyrs. Please, just stick to policy and don't make this about sending a message that "racism is bad". Because the message you really send when you do that is that "racism is suppressed, so who knows if they're right?" It may seem counterintuitive, but fascist beliefs thrive on fascist policies, no matter who they are directed against. Wnt (talk) 13:41, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      And, is defeating Holocaust deniers (or any other kind of revisionist bigot) "in fair and open argument" part of the purpose of Wikipedia anyway? We should be challenging bigotry by providing proper unbiased articles based on reliable sources, not by giving bigots a platform and debating with them in a way that suggests they deserve any respect. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:22, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Absolutely that's part of the purpose! It's not good enough for Wikipedia to know that the Holocaust happened -- we have to be able to prove that it happened, to explain everything about it, and to debunk those who say it didn't. If someone wants to zealously collect a bunch of misleading arguments against the Holocaust for us, it doesn't even really matter if their motivation is pro or against -- they've simply given us grist for the mill. Wnt (talk) 13:41, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      In articles, with discussion of sources and consensus, I agree, within limit. But not through the poisoning of the well at high profile pages like Jimbo Talk (which, as Iridescent has pointed out, has been painting a horrible picture to newcomers in recent months with Wikid77's being allowed to go on and on with no rejection by the page's proprietor). And even in article debates, I still think the platform we should give to bigots should be limited - as they're the kind of people who will just keep coming back with the same hateful bilge again and again, and it's repetition that gets the hard-of-thinking on their side. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:06, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Another comment after reading your other comment above - We are talking about someone here who lied about a source to try to claim that the Confederacy was really quite a nice cuddly place that was really kind to slaves, and who doesn't like that he can't use the word "nigger" in what he says is its proper respectful way. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:13, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      It is inherently unfair to make an argument that someone deserves negative repercussions by putting a sarcastic twist on their words and imply they said them, rather than actually quoting them. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 20:16, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Go read his odious words yourself. He's clearly trying to push a white supremacist meme that slaves were treated well and that slavery wasn't so bad, and trying to whitewash that shameful era in history. I'm really surprised that you can't see that. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:14, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Ah. So, this is a matter of my lack of vision to see that Wikid is a "white supremacist." How about we stick to rational debate, rather than try to make a case that there is something "surprising" about my calling out your not doing so?
      Nothing unfair about using sarcasm when appropriate. I assume anyone that is commenting here has read the thread and is perfectly aware of what is being discussed. Is "cuddly" really so out of line to refer to language from Wikid77 such as:
      Well, check the facts of imagined "ill treatment" of African Americans, who actually often lived in the master's house, or had private rooms in the servant quarters of the mansion, or whose children played alongside the owner family, blacks with white children, or were given manumission liberty when the master died, etc.
      All the reliable sources that make it clear that slavery, from the slave's perspective, sucks are wrong and it's all in my imagination? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:10, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      We're not talking about the suckery of slavery, we're talking about a simple statement. I believe that the statement you take so much offense to is true. Some slaves "lived in the master's house, or had private rooms in the servant quarters of the mansion, or whose children played alongside the owner family, blacks with white children, or were given manumission liberty when the master died." Is it wrong to speak of mitigating facts about slave-holders because slavery is inherently wrong?       Lynn (SLW) (talk) 21:46, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      You ignore the context and deliberately do not discuss the language that sets the context. Specifically you ignore, "Well, check the facts of imagined 'ill treatment' of African Americans". What you claim are facts are presented to support the premise that slaves were not ill treated. Why did you ignore this essential part of the sentence that you claim, w/o any qualification, "is true"? If the statement by 77 is unqualifyingly true, why did you use "some" when 77 said "often". Bottom line, would you like to retract your unqualified support for 77's claim, that it "is true" that "ill treatment" is "imagined"? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 22:08, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I do not ignore the first part of the statement; it is simply not something I can speak on outside the context of the discussion in which it is made, unlike the fact that came after it. And "some" is not a variable of "often." "Some" refers to a quantity of a noun, "often" refers to the frequency of an event. Both terms are highly subjective and not mutually exclusive. Provide some context for why I should retract rather than twist what I said. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 22:47, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      So you have no idea of the context of the statement? How is it, then, that you said elsewhere:
      "Not that I necessarily think that the things he's said warrant any ban; I also think its wrong to say that on their face they are racist statements and to call him a racist, but its appearing that the reason he's saying them is to provoke, rather than discuss"
      when you apparently haven't read much of the material that has been discussed? Have you read anything from User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 232#Horrors of a POV-fork page and User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 232#How to mention political groups in a page? Let me know when you have. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:22, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Also check out User talk:Wikid77#Previous warnings and block which points out the fact that the statement we are discussing was a prime cause of 77's block. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:32, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      My understanding is that when someone is trying to make a case that someone should be banned, they provide the evidence. I evaluated the evidence provided. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 01:36, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Non-responsive. You had said, "I believe that the statement you take so much offense to is true" and I said, "Bottom line, would you like to retract your unqualified support for 77's claim, that it "is true" that "ill treatment" is "imagined". You asked for context on the statement we're discussing and I provided three links that show that context. So do you still stand with 77 in saying that the universal acknowledgement that ill treatment of slaves existed in the U.S. is actually nothing but imagination? In the absence of any reputable scholarship that supports 77's take, what other than racism could inspire him to say such a thing? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:16, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Sigh. I am not going to answer the question you asked because it twists the statement Wikid made. I looked back at the context of his statement: "Well, check the facts of imagined 'ill treatment' of African Americans" It started out as a discussion of the Irish Slaves myth article. Wikid's statement was a response to this statement: "No doubt Irish people were treated poorly at times, but there's just no comparison at all and there's not a serious debate about the subject - just people trying to minimize our ill treatment of African Americans." Wikid made the mistake of following down the path he was being led, rather than challenge B's assertion that discussion of the treatment of the Irish is "just people trying to minimize our ill treatment of African Americans" No, the treatment of the indentured European servants is its own story, regardless of whether or not it is being currently being exploited to hammer blacks into "getting over it" The discussion devolved from there, with others leading Wikid further down the path by putting words in his mouth ("Then again, seeing as how you already said that you believe that blacks enjoyed being slaves") ending in Wikid's rambling dissertion that basically makes the point that the history of the relationship between blacks and whites has been and still is complex and cannot be summed up in words like "ill treatment." So, no, I do not see obvious racist intent in Wikid's statement, just someone who is trying to bring another point of view to the table, but expressing himself poorly. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 15:27, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      77 has had plenty of opportunity to claim he was tricked or clarify his meaning, but he didn't do so in the discussions, never commented on his recent 48 hour block for racist comments, and continued to make similar comments. Absent the best possible explanation (a convincing argument from 77), I'll go by what he actually wrote. Your comment that "the history of the relationship between blacks and whites has been and still is complex and cannot be summed up in words like 'ill treatment'" is certainly true, but says nothing to justify saying that ill treatment is imaginary. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 16:26, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      "I'll go by what he actually wrote." Ah, well that is progress then, if you would actually do it. "imagined ill-treatment" does not mean the same thing as "ill treatment is imaginary" "imagined ill-treatment" does not deny the existence of ill-treatment, but is leaving the attributes of it open. In this case the "imagined ill-treatment" would be B's since he is the one that brought it up, but did not define it.       Lynn (SLW) (talk) 16:43, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      You really should do some reading if your honest response to B is, "What is this mysterious 'ill treatment' of which you speak." 77 accepted the challenge of what B said and responded to it. What is clear is that 77 felt the way to refute B was to try to claim that (1)if the small number of slaves that lived in the manor house may have got treated better than the vast majority that didn't (2)then no mistreatment occurred. No reasonable person can believe that a slave is not being ill treated by the very fact that they are a slave as long as they might be freed when their owner dies. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 17:25, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      We're getting closer, but you still insist upon twisting the words. Now, let's go back to the context. B stated: "just people trying to minimize our ill treatment of African Americans." Okay, so what ill-treatment did B "imagine" there? Not that it was imaginary, but if I said to a crowd of people "imagine the ill-treatment of African Americans" everyone would probably have a different perspective. So, what was B's "imagined ill-treatment?" He didn't say. Wikid responded by making the point that some slaves were treated as well as white servants. It was you and others that put the twist on it that Wikid was "refuting" B by trying to make a case that no mistreatment occurred. If Wikid assumed that B's "imagined ill-treatment" was how masters treated black slaves relative to how they treated "Irish people," his response makes a lot more sense. Basically, he made the same mistake all of you are doing by responding without getting clarification of what was an enigmatic response. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 18:03, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Just to be clear, again that time Wikid77 misused and abused sources, a source he attempted to rely on specifically said: "In recent years, right-wing whites have inundated social media and cyberspace with the lie that Irish ‘slavery’ was worse than that suffered by Africans." and "In contrast to those of African descent, the Irish were never legally nor systematically subjected to lifelong, heritable slavery in the colonies." (emphasis added) When this was pointed out, Wikid77 attempted to argue against or ignore his own source, and arguing against or ignoring your own source is textbook POV-pushing, and that ultimately led up to Wikid's "imagined 'ill treatment' of African Americans" comment. Ill treatment, imagined? Come on, what part of reading history says ill-treatment of African American's in slavery is "imagined", unless it's racist history, because slavery itself was a racist system according to the sources, even for house slaves. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:40, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I believe there is validity to the idea that white indentured servants were treated worse than black slaves. Someone who bought an indentured servant had a limited time to make a return on their investment, so they extracted the maximum work from them and gave them a minimum of care. A slave owner had incentive to take care of his slaves. But again, you are making the accusation, you have the obligation to do a better job of supporting it. You haven't even supplied a link to the supposed POV pushing. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 01:36, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      You believe. So you have an unimpressive POV. It does not change the facts that the source says and said, the "lie that Irish ‘slavery’ was worse than that suffered by Africans." And pretending you don't have the link to the discussion around Wikid's "imagined" comment is just bizarre, they have been supplied several times.Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:57, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I was not aware that the totality of the discussion revolved around one source.       This article states: "According to Rodgers, masters sometimes worked servants harder because they only possessed their service for a limited time, and this fact underscores 'the complexity of making comparisons' between slavery and indenture."Lynn (SLW) (talk) 03:37, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Really? So, you are unaware of the very details of the Wikid77 comments and the sources there that you claim to be commenting upon. There, he cites only two sources (not one) in his OP, one on the "myth", and one discussing the "lie". Your quote from a Wikipedia article does not change or even challenge the sources he posted -- that a comparison is complex would not mean there is not lie nor myth about it. At any rate, this CBAN discussion is pretty much over because the CBAN has functionally already been endorsed, and whatever your arguments where you somehow see mistreatment of African Americans in slavery as imagined are rather pointless, if nothing else. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:51, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I was responding to your attack on my comment. And your attempt to characterize what I have said is that I "somehow see mistreatment of African Americans in slavery as imagined" is another example of the way some of you here lead less chary editors down paths they do not mean to wander. Fie! Lynn (SLW) (talk) 15:55, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Comment was attacked? That does not even make sense. Perhaps, you should stay on topic when discussing a series of Wikid77 (or another editor's) posts. At any rate, only you are responsible for the paths you trod down. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:25, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      All that stuff you hear about downtrod paths is imagined. EEng 19:16, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Are you saying that AlanScottWalker has voices in his head? Just clarify so that he can properly respond. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 19:34, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      No need. Probably, it's just the case that, on this page, the paths you have chosen to trod down are imaginary, and winding. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:32, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      The "if" in "If people make contributions supported by good refs..." is a big one. If you've actually read these discussions, then you will know that it has been demonstrated that Wikid77 will play fast and loose with references. If you've read about 77's claim that there really were Irish slaves and then go to the article Irish slaves myth, you should be able to realize that 77 has provided no reliable secondary sources to support his claims that there really were actual Irish slaves in the U.S. Not to mention his claim discussed right above that the ill treatment of slaves is imaginary. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 22:41, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Systematic misrepresentation of sources is a terrible thing and should not be tolerated. While I choose to be legally precise and refer to indentured servants as such, the Wikipedia article you cite makes it clear that "Some books have used the term Irish "slaves" for captive Irish". It adds: "for centuries, Irish folklore or various books had referred to the captive servants as Irish "slaves" even into the 20th century". Does citation of these sources, or use of what for centuries was day-to-day popular language not couched on precise legal terms, now entail banishment from Wikipedia? Were sources actually systematically misrepresented on Wikipedia entries by the person about to be made an unperson? XavierItzm (talk) 01:51, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      You cherry pick. Both the article title and the article lede makes it clear that the article is about a false ahistorical claim (i.e. that there were Irish slaves). The lede says:
      The Irish slaves myth concerns the use of the term Irish "slaves" as a conflation of the penal transportation and indentured servitude of Irish people during the 17th and 18th centuries. Some white nationalists, and others who want to minimize the chattel slavery experience of Africans and their descendants, have used the myth to attack contemporary African American efforts for equality and reparations. The Irish slaves myth has also been invoked by some Irish activists, to highlight the British oppression of the Irish people and to suppress the history of Irish involvement in the transatlantic slave trade.[1]
      The myth has become increasingly prominent since the 1990s and has been prominent in online memes and social media debates.[2] This has led a large number of historians to publicly condemn it.[2][3]
      77 wants to cherry pick the same language you did and ignore the 99% of the article (and the reliable sources that supports it) that refutes it and give equal time in the article (which would have "myth" stricken from the title) given to the white nationalist view. See User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 232#Horrors of a POV-fork page for 77's own words.
      I go back to the part of your original post above that I originally questioned ("If people make contributions supported by good refs..."). 77 wants an article that with elevate fringe pinions and minimize the "good refs'. In answer to your question ("Were sources actually systematically misrepresented on Wikipedia entries by the person about to be made an unperson?"), that is clearly 77's intent here and in all the other instances cited in these discussions. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:49, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I question wheter 77 or for that matter anyone could get away that will "elevate fringe opinions and minimize the "good refs'." From your response it looks like 77 has not engaged in systematical misrepresentation of sources at all. Banning should not be cleanup. Looks like 77 is being punished for having an unpopular opinion. Banning 77 will reduce diversity of thought and accelerate the creation of a monoculture on Wikipedia.XavierItzm (talk) 22:43, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Indeed, Tom (North Shoreman) references the wrong article. Irish indentured servants gives a much better overview of the subject. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 02:21, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Not true. If you read the links you asked for that I provided you, you would realize that 77's arguments deal with the myth article. His position is that there were actually white Irish slaves. He argues that that this position, promoted most vigorously by white nationalists and neo-confederates, should be given equal space with those reliable secondary sources that are the backbone of wikipedia. The article you reference is based on those sources which is why 77 finds it insufficient for his agenda. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:16, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      XavierItzm, LynnWysong just so you both know 77’s original indefinite block has been upheld. This current discussion is pretty much inconsequential because he has shown he lacks the skills to acknowledge what he did wrong; hence an appeal will almost surely be unsuccessful and he will remain blocked long-term. Do you both really need to make a stand for a Confederate apologist who insists the mistreatment of slaves was “imaginary”—that slaves actually loved their masters and the Confederacy; is that the kind of shit that belongs here?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:36, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Ah, Slick. I see that your own recent justified indef block has made you an expert on whether someone else "lacks the skills to acknowledge what he did wrong." When you were indeffed, I made a statement on an off-wiki site that you certainly should have known better, and the fact that you are here now should make you a bit more humble towards those facing the same fate. Instead, you are doubling-down. Tsk Tsk. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 03:10, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      LynnWysong I find it a bit disturbing you had nothing better to do but talk about me outside this site, but that is besides the current issue. And a bit funny that you can have a condenscending tone against me while defending a staunch racist and historical revisionist. I’m not “doubling-down; go ahead and defend him—the real “lost cause”. I see racism will not die with 77 from Wikipedia—you made that apparent enough.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 04:39, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Slick, I would not want to infer something that you did not mean to imply. Are you accusing me of being a racist? Because if you are, your denial that you are doubling down needs to be re-evaluated. In fact, you should be the one reading the Lost Cause article. It is the inclination of people to not be introspective and take responsibility for their part in conflict and the consequences of conflict that causes them to be embroiled in conflict again and again.

      I don't know if Wikid buys into the Lost Cause mindset, but I do know that the subjects he touches are complex and fraught with controversy. I also know that the impulse to squelch discussion of those subjects with screams of "Racism!" is what will prevent racism from dying on Wikipedia because racism is not actually being dealt with. It's a lot easier to focus attention on someone with unpopular views than to really deal with Wikipedia's problems. So quit flying the Wikipedia banner. It's starting to look suspiciously like the Confederate flag. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 11:26, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      What prevents racism being minimised (it will never be eradicated as there is no shortage of racists) on Wikipedia is that editors who engage in bullshit like wikid's are indulged by a small number of apologists and it gives them the (false) impression their views are welcome and deserve a platform. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:06, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      On behalf of me and my fellow "apologists": Fie on your labels!Lynn (SLW) (talk) 16:17, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @Masem: too many experienced editors want to drown out any challenging speech because it doesn't meet their views, which is 100% unacceptable To whom does this refer? I haven't seen anyone explicitly say they want "to drown out challenging speech because it doesn't meet their views", so unless you can provide evidence for that kind of accusation it would seem you are the one engaging in unacceptable actions here. That's a pretty foul accusation to make against any experienced editor, let alone several unnamed ones, and accusations without evidence are personal attacks. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:54, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      "Too many experienced editors" is a broad statement, I have no specific names only that discussions in places like here, ANI, AE, and elsewhere which is frequented by admins show an alarming state of the larger problem, which is a trend overall WP is suffering from. Even in this discussion, several of those supporting the site ban seem to be on the reason they don't like what was being said. It doesn't seem disruptive (on Wales' page which tends to be an open venue), not BLP or NPA related, so barring any other extraordinary reasons, the only reason to see out remedies would be to quiet a voice that is in disagreement. --Masem (t) 15:09, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I don't know about you, but I would call redirecting this to this disruptive, and certainly not in a "hard truth" kind of way. That's what tipped the scale for me, and it seems like people are missing it. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:12, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Disruption on mainspace is actionable, but I'm not reading that from those supporting a ban above but instead supporting the ban based on what was posted to Wales' talk, given this all started with a block based on content posted to Wales' talk. --Masem (t) 15:24, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Okay, well, having seen the mainspace effects, do you think they are disruptive/actionable (especially with the additional context of the edits to Jimbotalk)? From your vote, I assume not. If that's a correct assumption, why not? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:12, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      "Hard truths," Masem? I suppose you're right about this. But it's also true that sometimes we must confront hard nonsense. And sometimes, to my mind, extraordinary measures (such as site bans) are appropriate responses. Dumuzid (talk) 14:21, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      77 argues that the ill treatment of slaves is imaginary and falls hard for the white nationalist promotion to diminish African American slavery by falsely claiming that there were actually Irish slaves who suffered the same indignities. Those positions certainly meet my criteria for "completely whacked out BS". Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 15:12, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      The bulk of the discussion below forgets the simple fact that editing Wikipedia is a privilege, not a right. We have the right and the ethical responsibility to ban people who bring evil world views to Wikipedia, or we are very likely to find ourselves with insurmountable problems. I have not looked into this specific case, but I think that in general, this notion that we can't ban people unless they break some already-written rule of Wikipedia is not consistent with our heritage or values. We can ban people for being awful human beings, and that's that.--Jimbo Wales
      77 is bringing ideas about race to a very visible discussion page that are very arguably evil. These discussions have been going on for awhile now and 77 has posted on his own talk page, but he has not addressed the core of the argument against his continuing presence in this community. The only one who can possibly convincingly say what needs to be said (i.e. I had good intentions, screwed up, and won't do it again) remains silent. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 15:44, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @Robert McClenon: Why do you always want to escalate these things in that very specific manner? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:37, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Clarification

      Two options are on the table: site ban and topic ban. Site ban is unambiguous, topic ban requires clarification. My reading is that the decision is between:

      1. Unblock
      2. Topic ban with the scope: race, ethnicity, slavery and Jimbotalk
      3. Site ban

      Questions:

      1. Could anyone supporting topic ban above, who does not agree with #2 above, please clarify here what scope you would prefer?
      2. Since the original question was either/or, could anyone advocating site ban but not discussing topic ban, please clarify if the topic ban would be sufficient?

      Thanks. Guy (Help!) 10:56, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Thank you. Guy (Help!) 18:18, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      • Atsme don’t pretend being a slavery apologist, downplaying the racism behind the word, “nigger”, and excusing it with the ol’ “my friends are black, so I cannot possibly be racist” trope is all in the spirit of “simply discussing race”.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:11, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @Atsme: In fact we do - pro-paedophilia activists, for example. The issue is that advocating for the Confederacy involves both being defiantly wrong, indicating an inability to properly follow sources, and creating a chilling effect, a hostile environment where people of colour may feel unwelcome, thus reinforcing systemic bias. Guy (Help!) 22:06, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @JzG: One of the sources Wikid77 used was Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America written by William C. Davis who is described as a Pulitzer Prize winning professor of history with Civil War emphasis. He cited to it on Jimbo's page in this section. Our article on Davis has no controversy section one would expect of a Neo-Confederate historical revisionist. Are you saying that is an improper source? If so, please explain.
      Also, if you are going to accuse an editor of improperly using sources, please provide diffs. I do not see those above. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:17, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      So what? Read the Jimbotalk comments. After checking the facts, the Confederacy emerges as a moderate nation and a series of confederate-apologist cherrypicking. David Irving also cited valid sources, it was his conclusion that was the problem. Same here. Guy (Help!) 00:15, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I agree the Confederacy emerges as a moderate nation cannot be sustained from the material he presented and would require some strong sourcing, which I doubt there is. Without it, it's no more than WP:OR and/or WP:SYN. And as Alanscottwalker correctly pointed out here the same source contradicts his conclusion. So, why not ask Wikid77 for a source that gives that conclusion and/or use Alanscottwalker's quote? And if he gives none, then ask him to strike? It seems to me far more productive and creates a better editor than banning someone for articulating an opinion that can't be sustained by the WP:RS.
      And for the record, I do think his polemics are unnecessary. However, I have seen many people get away with polemics about their personal opinions about all kinds of subjects on Jimbo's page and elsewhere without admonishment, saying things I know are patently wrong. I say, let's correct them if they have the wrong facts, wrong conclusions, etc. I think the problems can be handled without calling him a 'racist'. --David Tornheim (talk) 01:49, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      We do ban editors who post hate speech per WP:HARASSMENT. This user has posted problematic things on his userpage during this discussion. Without a site ban this will never stop. Legacypac (talk) 20:32, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Well, I just learned something I was only partially aware of, but then I was not aware that this particular editor fell into that mold. Atsme signing off. Atsme✍🏻📧 23:16, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      "Wikid77 is topic-banned indefinitely from race, ethnicity, and slavery, broadly construed. They may appeal this ban after a minimum of six months."
      I do not see any need to ban him from Jimbo's talk page as long as he follows the topic ban. --David Tornheim (talk) 15:11, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Response from Wikid77

      Copied by request from User talk:Wikid77... (Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:39, 16 December 2018 (UTC))[]

      • Response from Wikid77: User:Wikid77 here. I'm sorry for all the confusion, and Cullen328 has posted specifics now about the various concerns over my remarks (see talk-page diff: [10]). In the case where my remark was termed "racist nonsense" about "yard work" then I should have linked the entry ('yard': [11]) in Oxford Reference (from Oxford University Press) to describe the workman as differing from a house servant as one working in the fields, but even then I saw many people did not want that issue discussed on Jimbo-talk as being too public a forum, especially for those unaware the field worker was a historic term, not a pejorative. In the 2nd case, I should have linked more sources, such as page "manumission" for how slaves could buy their freedom with regular payments, especially in Cuba. However, now after reading concerns at wp:ANI, I realize many people do not like discussing slavery on Jimbotalk and instead reach consensus on an article talk-page.

        "I honestly did not realize there were Wikipedians still here who had checked dozens of books about slavery and wanted to present only the majority viewpoints, rather than present a topic from a range of various sources per wp:NPOV even years ago. I had thought the missing page "Slave weddings" was a tedious omission, to summarize over 10,000 antebellum weddings from U.S. government records, but now I suspect various pages were purposely omitted from Wikipedia, and I need to learn who is doing this and what can be done to bring Wikipedia forward. I had imagined when discussing these pages at Jimbotalk, then someone might say, "Hey, ask at Wikiproject:Weddings" or such, but instead got blocked for "racist revisionism" [12]. Apparently all these slavery topics are tangent to WP racial problems or opposition to wp:NPOV. That might be why WP is decades behind in covering those topics. So tell friends to read specific outside sources, when Wikipedia omits a particular topic. --Wikid77 (talk) 08:12, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Wow. Someone is not aware of the Law of Holes. Guy (Help!) 09:53, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      That was precisely my thought, though I admit I was initially left speechless. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:09, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      For me it's not the racism but the stupidity. A racist editor's relatively easy to spot and fence off. But stupid just keeps going and going and going. EEng 02:32, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Fact Check Wikid77 claims, "I had thought the missing page "Slave weddings" was a tedious omission, to summarize over 10,000 antebellum weddings from U.S. government records, but now I suspect various pages were purposely omitted from Wikipedia, and I need to learn who is doing this and what can be done to bring Wikipedia forward." Using what some people call the "Google Machine" I searched using "slave weddings wikipedia" and the fourth result was Jumping the broom. From that article:

      Slave-owners were faced with a dilemma regarding committed relationships between slaves. While some family stability might be desirable as helping to keep slaves tractable and pacified, anything approaching a legal marriage was not. Marriage gave a couple rights over each other which conflicted with the slave-owners’ claims.[28] Most marriages between enslaved blacks were not legally recognized during American slavery,[29] as in law marriage was held to be a civil contract, and civil contracts required the consent of free persons.[30] In the absence of any legal recognition, the slave community developed its own methods of distinguishing between committed and casual unions.[31] The ceremonial jumping of the broom served as an open declaration of settling down in a marriage relationship. Jumping the broom was always done before witnesses as a public ceremonial announcement that a couple chose to become as close to married as was then allowed.[32]

      Incidentally the first search result was Slave breeding in the United States. Clearly sex and marriage of slaves is covered -- another conspiracy theory bites the dust. Of course, the real reason this was even mentioned by Wikid77 is that he wanted to imply that somehow 10,000 sanctioned marriages was further proof of how great slaves had it.

      There is an interesting article by a Princeton history professorat [13] that offers a perspective on what 77's POV probably is. In it she starts by writing:

      WAS slavery an idyllic world of stable families headed by married parents? The recent controversy over “The Marriage Vow,” a document endorsed by the Republican presidential candidates Michele Bachmann and Rick Santorum, might seem like just another example of how racial politics and historical ignorance are perennial features of the election cycle.

      The vow, which included the assertion that “a child born into slavery in 1860 was more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household than was an African-American baby born after the election of the USA’s first African-American President,” was amended after the outrage it stirred.

      However, this was not a harmless gaffe; it represents a resurfacing of a pro-slavery view of “family values” that was prevalent in the decades before the Civil War. The resurrection of this idea has particular resonance now, because it was 150 years ago, soon after the war began, that the government started to respect the dignity of slave families. Slaves did not live in independent “households”; they lived under the auspices of masters who controlled the terms of their most intimate relationships.

      Using the same method as above, with this edit [14] 77 created a red link to black slaveholders black slaveowners which at least one of his supporters feels is significant. 77's obvious (to me) intent is to muddy up the waters on the link between slavery and white supremacy and pretend that wikipedia is ignoring the subject. What he obviously ignores is that black slaveholders is discussed in the main article at Slavery in the United States#Black slaveholders. Was this omission intentional or a sign that, for all his posturing, he hasn't even read the main article on the subject he is pontificating on? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Of course you're right. Wikid77 has not submitted an appeal. There is no reason to reverse Cullen328's original decision until an appeal is submitted. We should probably suspend all further discussion on site ban, topic ban, or let it be until we get a response. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 22:53, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I'm sorry, but the above is Wikid's appeal (read: "the block was in error because everyone just misunderstood me"). That it doesn't read as one for most people is in itself relevant. Let's not reward being out of step with the community by shelving a discussion that already demonstrates consensus for a site ban so that the editor can appeal a much lesser sanction (indef block by a single admin, even if subsequently community endorsed) six months down the road when there will be far far less attention paid to the discussion, and it can be much more easily derailed by cheerleaders or free-speech extremists. Let this discussion run its course and whatever the outcome it will at least be the closest we can come to a real community consensus.
      Nyttend I'm concerned by your argument that a lesser remedy should invalidate the need for a greater remedy. The road back from the two are quite different, and the hurdle to clear to even get each sanction in the first place is different. If the community, in a fairly widely seen discussion, reaches consensus for a site ban, that is a much stronger basis than the community merely failing to overturn an indef made by a single admin. The community may also opt to go for a topic ban (which implies lifting the indef), though that seems somewhat unlikely based on the above. Given this, what possible good could be achieved by shelving this discussion? --Xover (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      time to move on?

      Wikid77's reply above has not been treated as a formal appeal; in the meantime discussions continue here. User Kover has suggested that 77's response was a de facto appeal and anyone reading this should, IMO, read his post carefully. It seems the community has four options:

      1. Do nothing and see if 77 decides to make it clear he wants to appeal. This appears to be what we're doing and it seems like the ongoing debate has about run its course.

      2. Have an administrator treat the above as an appeal and take appropriate action on the appeal.

      3. Have an administrator direct 77 to [15] which will show him how to submit the normal template to request an appeal.

      4. Close all the ongoing discussions and treat the indefinite suspension (the original issuance of it was determined by consensus as appropriate) as the final word. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:33, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Whether or not Wikid77 appealed or not is irrelevant. This is verbatim from WP:CBAN:

      Editors who are or remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community are considered "banned by the Wikipedia community".

      So,
      (1) Wikid77 was indef blocked by Cullen328
      (2) The indef block was considered by the community, and was upheld
      (3) Therefore Wikid77 is now "banned by the Wikipedia community"
      There is no need for an appeal, formal or de facto, and no need for any further discussion. If Wikid77 decides to appeal his community ban, the community will consider it, not any individual admin, and the community will decide whether he should be unbanned, and if so, under what conditions. Invariably, this discussion will be referenced, and someone will bring up the possibility of a topic ban from Jimbo's talk page. That's all in the future, though; right now Wikid77 is most definitely community banned. To this effect, I will be closing this discussion. Please do not re-open it unless there is a policy-based reason for doing so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:10, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Bomberswarm2

      Bomberswarm2 (talk · contribs) has been blocked by 331dot as an apparent sock of Drowningseagall (talk · contribs), based on this diff. Bomberswarm2 claims that this is not the case. 331dot has given the go-ahead to lift the block if a mistake has been made. As I don't see any evidence of WP:GHBH, I feel the block is unjustified, but would like more opinions before lifting it. O Still Small Voice of Clam (formerly Optimist on the run) 10:58, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Already investigated and unblocked; the evidence does not show any relationship between the accounts. Happy to explain my reasoning further if needs be. Yunshui 雲水 10:59, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I'm sure this is not the correct place, but I just checked Drowningseagall (talk · contribs)s' talk page again (where he has again claimed that he is me) and it appears to me he only has a temporary ban for vandalism or something. As I said in my appeal, I couldn't find an appropriate place to report him when he started harassing me earlier this year, So I'd like to request here that he be sanctioned for repeatedly harassing me, stalking me and targeting and reverting my edits and claiming he is actually me.Bomberswarm2 (talk) 11:23, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Oh, and this obvious, actual sockpuppett of his just posted this on my talk page just minutes ago, I better report this to you before I'm banned again for no reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bomberswarm2#Now_THIS_is_EPIC Bomberswarm2 (talk) 11:30, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      ArbCom election results

      They're in for anyone not watching that page. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:50, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Friendly discussion welcome at WT:ACE or user talk pages. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 02:27, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Drmies is a sad puppy.
      • NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


      Challenging close of WP:BLPN#Gavin McInnes

      Withdrawn by challenger (me). Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:39, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      I challenge the close of the discussion at the Biography of Living Persons Noticeboard about whether the category "White nationalists" should be added to the article Gavin McInnes. I do not believe the closer, a non-admin with limited experience (3 years and 3,800 edits), properly assessed the consensus of the discussion. I request that the discussion be re-opened and closed by an admin or an experienced editor. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:59, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      @Beyond My Ken: Serious question: how would you have closed it? Bradv🍁 05:43, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I'm willing to answer, but first: why do you ask? Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:05, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I ask because I don't see consensus there either, and not sure how else it could be closed. No one had edited the discussion in a week, so there's no indication that keeping it open longer would have helped. I'm wondering how you see it differently. Bradv🍁 06:12, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Well, erase the drive-by votes, which mostly came in at the end - do you see a consensus then? Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:13, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I see marginal support in favour of the category (especially if you include the non-bolded !votes and discount the blocked editors). But what I don't see is the requisite support in reliable sources for the category. Lots of search results for Gavin McInnes white nationalist, but we're lacking the is. Bradv🍁 06:20, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Uninvolved admins needed

      Could you please take a look at this matter --> User_talk:Borsoka#December_2018. Thank you! Fakirbakir (talk) 18:56, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Fakirbakir, if the admin vanishes after pulling off a 48 hour block under AE; sitting out the block is the most practical thing to do. AE blocks can't be overturned at individual discretion and a solid consensus of un-involved editors is mandatory for any amendment of the block-provision. That typically takes a few days to form esp. in non-brightline cases like this and before that the block itself lapses.
      FWIW, that's a ridiculous block (2 of the 3 folks that Amanda referred to as ones who were not heeded to by Borsoka in his warring-edits, supported his unblock and wholesale-praised his editorial efforts whilst the other got rightfully T-banned in a separate thread, hours after). Hence, unblock.
      Aggressive mopping in areas where nobody seems to have much of a problem among themselves is unwarranted.∯WBGconverse 21:40, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @Winged Blades of Godric: your aspersions above are inappropriate. I did not disappear after the block. I posted to my talkpage and to Borsoka's talkpage, and as much as a WMF Labs server move and sleep allowed me to, I responded. Also, you only need to look at what the mess was before I got involved to understand that this is not "where nobody seems to have much of a problem among themselves". Also I have unblocked the editor at this point. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 04:46, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @Fakirbakir:, thank you for your assistance. I think DeltaQuad misunderstood the whole issue from the beginning. First of all, DeltaQuad did not recognize that two new editors (who had surprisingly detailed knowledge of WP policies) stirred up the edit war months ago. Instead of applying a topic ban, she tried to force other editors to build a consensus with them. Actually, I tried. I ignored their absurd restructuring proposal, but otherwise I took into account their remarks about the text. Secondly, DeltaQuad obviously believes that two of my edits are related to each other and I made the second edit to secretly undo a revert. However the two edits are totally independent, and they were independently discussed on the Talk page, nobody but DeltaQuad made a connection between them. Thirdly, I am convinced that both the two mentioned issues and her always changing explanations for the sanction against me suggest that she was at least negligent. So I would like to achieve the cancellation of the sanction, because it can any time raised against me. I also would like to persuade DeltaQuad to undo her revert: for the time being I cannot undo it, because I would be sanctioned again. Borsoka (talk) 06:56, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Experienced users got blocked but malicious activities by provocateurs left untreated for months. No one cared that the newly arrived users tried everything to ruin this article. They started endless content disputes (check the talk page history) and edit warring. The opinions of experienced users were totally ignored by other editors/admins and it seemed that the now topic banned provocateurs' aims were even pushed forward by accountable users. Let's take a look at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_170#Talk:Origin_of_the_Romanians#Restructuring_the_article how our opinions were completely silenced by User:Robert McClenon. After witnessing this ignorance and incompetence I have to say that I am slightly disappointed with Wikipedia.Fakirbakir (talk) 08:21, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I was sympathetic to the editors who wanted assistance in "restructuring" the article on Origin of the Romanians and went to lengths to find them one moderator or two or three moderators. I thought and still think that this case illustrates the stupidity of the decision to close down the Mediation Committee. However, now that I see that my efforts to help are only drawing insults, I also see that User:Fakirbakir appears to be the sort of editor who leaves a wake of wreckage behind them. If anyone here is willing to try to mediate a dispute about Origin of the Romanians, mediation may still be an alternative to discretionary sanctions. However, the fact that there had been a suggestion that the mediation should be between two Hungarian editors and two Romanian editors maybe should have been an indication that the parties were looking for a compromise between nationalisms rather than to set aside their nationalistic tiff. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:46, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I am a Romanian, but I do not have advanced knowledge of the issue. I just know that there is an equilibrium/truce/stalemate between the competing theories. So I cannot be part of mediation. I saw my task as teaching the newbies the WP:RULES. Thereafter they could indeed cite policies and guidelines, but I really doubt that they have understood these. If they would have understood our rules, they would have behaved. They would have understood that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Also, some of their edits were pretty ridiculous, pushing extreme views and pseudoscience to the extent that I had suspected that they are Sockpuppet (Internet)#Strawman sockpuppets. Their aggressive, uncompromising attitude just does not make sense for Wikipedia insiders. I warned them about two months ago that they are WP:SPAs and they still did not tried to change that. I am also harsh and uncompromising, but only in respect to vandals. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:00, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Robert McClenon, I highly appreciate your mediations and I am personally grateful to you for your hard work. However, I must say now that your above remark was offensive. You implied that all editors involved in the debate are narrow-minded nationalists because one of them (who had meanwhile been topic-banned) made a stupid, nationalistic proposal. Please remember that all other editors refused his proposal and I explicitly stated that if a two-to-two situation were required, I would choose a Romanian editor ([16]). On the other hand, I am grateful for the same remark to you, because it demonstrates an attitude (and bias) which enabled two trolls to play their games for months. Administrators who were approached either refused to intervene ("this is a content debate (among Eastern Europeans," they added in their mind) or started to throw discretionary sanctions without investigating the issue ("we administrators can apply discretionary sanctions, because you are Eastern Europeans, and Eastern Europeans are well-known nationalists"). Are you administrators sure that your power to apply discretionary sanctions relating to "Eastern" European articles still helps to improve WP, or it is only a pretext for you to ignore your duties in connection with the same articles? Borsoka (talk) 13:59, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Well, RGloucester, it sounds like bringing your request to AE was the right move to get attention to this problem. Admins frequently only know about problems when they are flagged and brought to their attention through a noticeboard. Personally, I understand editors and admins keeping their distance from areas of the project that seem prone to disputes that can be intractable. I agree that admins need to assess the motives (as much as one can) among editors pushing a POV, but it can often seem like a no-win situation. Liz Read! Talk! 20:12, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Well, I know it was 'right', but it was also somewhat of an absurdity. I have no involvement at all in this topic, and was only made aware of the dispute by Mr McClenon's posting at the Village Pump. Unfortunately, AE is so Kafkaesque in its workings that I fear that the average editor has trouble approaching it...or, perhaps, is afraid of receiving the treatment that Borsoka did. That's why I made an AE request...because, as an uninvolved party with AE experience, it was possible for me to do so...but given that administrators were actively patrolling this page and instituting various remedies to curb disruption there, I would've hoped for a more thorough response at an earlier juncture...and by that, I mean evaluating the effect that these SPAs had on the article. The whole so-called 'dispute' originated with them...and yet, the remedies used didn't address the source of the problem, and instead treated the situation as a 'content dispute' between two equally valid 'sides'. That's the problem that I've seen. But, in any case, I think it's time for us to put this behind us, and hope for more constructive editing at that article in future. RGloucester — ☎ 20:24, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      @RGloucester: Do you have your admins right? I didn't block Iovaniorgovan. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 02:42, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Pardon me, I meant Vanjagenije (talk · contribs). RGloucester — ☎ 02:48, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Count Iblis NOTHERE case

      Prompted by comments and responses in the Wikid77 thread I did some looking around and have come to the conclusion User:Count Iblis (Contributions) is WP:NOTHERE.

      Jumbo Wales, whose talkpage is referenced herein.

      Surely you mean Jimbo Whales, EEng?

      No, he meant that other one with the hat
      • At the top of their talkpage we learn "Count Iblis rejects most of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. He just edits in any way he sees fit to improve Wikipedia. Whether such edits violate Wikipedia's policies is neither here nor there." and "Count Iblis does not recognize the validity of ArbCom rulings. He calls on all restricted editors to violate their restrictions and on all Admins to unblock editors who are blocked on Arbitration Enforcement grounds."
      • They basically stopped contributing to mainspace 6 years ago. In 2018 they managed just 5 mainspace edits against 329 total edits. The previous 5 years are not much better. [17] A focus on the Refdesk [18], Jumbo Wales Jimbo Whales talkpage and AN(i) with no effort to improve mainspace is NOTHERE.
      • He said: " I don't care at all about our policies here, most of my contributions to Wikipedia are in violation of our core policies, I have often given fake citation to please the OR warriors here. " [19]
      • Comments at AN around racism are reprehensible with "we have to acknowledge that he isn't a racist himself." (except many editors have found wikid77's comments to be racist) and " former racists" have turned on other targets... link and " the real Adolph Hitlers are always respected and tolerated when they wield power" [20]. Most concerning he directly linked a Hitler speech Youtube hosts but restricts in a way I've never seen before (seems to be commentary on our NOTHERE policy).
      • General stupidity about Wikipedia operation like [21] [22] and editors [23]

      Propose an INDEF of Count Iblis for WP:NOTHERE Legacypac (talk) 00:36, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Comment I think this may be an inappropriate forum Legacypac, ANI I think would be better. The Hitler video post (WTF?) I believe could be interpreted as an 'incident'. Copyvio and other issues, like sanity. Copy and paste it there methinks. Simon Adler (talk) 01:47, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      However, Legacypac has buried the most sanctionable concern. If there's evidence that his claim I have often given fake citation is actually true, a block would be called for. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:57, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Indeed. Simon Adler (talk) 02:00, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Generally discussions about longterm behavior come to AN. I take him at his word he has used fake cites. I'm not saying he is racist because he supports one but because he posts racist stuff himself. If he was making useful contributions to mainspace there would be a bigger case that he has a purpose here but he does not seem interested in building the encyclopedia. Legacypac (talk) 02:09, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I've looked at some of their "recent" mainspace contributions. The worst referencing I've found is [24], which links to a TV show I can't access that says it's "recent research". Edits like [25] are only slightly problematic; it's unreferenced but is generally straightforward math. The claim that this is an "ancient Indian algorithm" does need to be referenced; the "ancient Indian" part has since been removed. I'm not sure why 1 − 1 + 2 − 6 + 24 − 120 + ... is an article at all, but oh well. The Vitamin D edits do seem to be him pushing a point of view that isn't necessarily backed by sources; but none of Legacypac's comments seem to suggest anything regarding a medicine topic ban. In this case, topic bans are extremely likely to be counterproductive. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:42, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Oppose Not seeing any justification for a site or topic ban. The reasoning behind this request seems to be extraordinarily weak.--MONGO (talk) 02:53, 17 December 2018 (UTC) Further elaboration seems to indicate an issue of concern so awaiting explanation by defendent.--MONGO (talk) 04:07, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      I find the Hitler video and it's background context and comment accompanying it to be highly concerning. I can't view the clip as YouTube says it is unavailable in my country. But if it is footage of a Hitler speech giving an Anti-Semitic rant, with the accompanying comment of Hitler saying that Jews are NOTHERE - which appeared to be the gist of it - then I would be highly pissed off, and no doubt the community would. If it is more nuanced, such as a parody video, then it still deserves a massive trouting. It would seem to show the editor has poor social judgement at the very least. Simon Adler (talk) 03:07, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Simon Adler - it is the first case exactly as you laid out, historical footage of Hitler with English subtitles where he says Jews are not here. Legacypac (talk) 03:16, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      yep just saw the video, I concur with LP and I am highly pissed off. --DBigXrayᗙ 03:21, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      That's siteban shit. It makes 77's issues look positively mild. Fuck that. Simon Adler (talk) 03:25, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I've redacted that comment by Iblis. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:07, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I can't think of ANY valid reason to post a Hitler video in an AN discussion. That post is what got me looking into this user. Legacypac (talk) 04:57, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      This kind of coercion is no doubt why Count Iblis made a comparison to Hitler, as explained by D.Creish here. People compare others they disagree with to Hilter so often, that one of the Wikimedia Foundation's prominent attorneys, Mike Godwin, created Godwin's law:
      If an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which effectively the discussion or thread often ends.
      Now, instead of declaring his comparison to Hitler as Reductio ad Hitlerum, ending the discussion, or ignoring it, you want him banned too? Please. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:29, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      That is absolutely NOT why I filed this report. I saw a Hitler video posted and found an editor that is Not Here to play by the rules of Wikipedia. Legacypac 07:42, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
      From the filer who wrote:
      I do agree this is a problem if he has done it, and should be confronted about that. Interrogated about when he did it, fix them, promise not to do it, again, etc. Let's keep in mind that was posted a year ago. Why didn't anyone say something about it then? --David Tornheim (talk) 08:14, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      He posted it in a non-high profile area, and we don't know if anyone said anything. Given the low number of mainspace edits, he may be talking about the ref desk. Maybe he can explain if he is lying or telling the truth. Either way it is a problem. Legacypac (talk) 08:20, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      I agree it is problem either way that he needs to address. If he refuses to acknowledge it is a problem, refuses to strike that post with an apology and/or refuses to correct any fake citation he made, etc., then I would support some kind of action against him until these issues are addressed. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:26, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Related to your b) point, that is covered in the paradox of tolerance. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 15:58, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Also their statement on their userpage that they encourage people to violate AE enforcement decisions is troubling. Simonm223 (talk) 16:46, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      • @Ivanvector, I'm not supporting this as I think it's disproportionate but how is Count Iblis does not recognize the validity of ArbCom rulings. He calls on all restricted editors to violate their restrictions and on all Admins to unblock editors who are blocked on Arbitration Enforcement grounds. not "actually organizing and encouraging groups of editors to break the rules on purpose"? ‑ Iridescent 18:49, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      • Oppose, much as it pains me as I do think Count Iblis is a textbook WP:NOTHERE case. This differs from the Wikid77 case in that 77 continued with inappropriate conduct after being told it was inappropriate. In the absence of evidence that Count Iblis has done something inappropriate after being asked not to, it's too much of a jump to go straight to banning—given how long he's been doing this kind of crap without being called out on it, it's plausible to assume he genuinely thought the rest of Wikipedia considered him some kind of court jester and was deliberately allowing him to do things that would normally be considered disruptive. ‑ Iridescent 18:54, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      • I think you're misinterpreting the purpose of WP:IAR, which says

        If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.

        In other words, it's not intended to be blanket permission to ignore every policy, guideline or rule on every occasion, but, instead, to make an evaluation of whether a rule is standing in the way of an improvement, in which case one is empowered to ignore it. That isn't an invitation to anarchy, it's a way to ensure that rules don't impede progress. On the other hand, what Count Iblis is saying -- and, worse, encouraging in others -- is anarchy. His statements

        Count Iblis rejects most of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. He just edits in any way he sees fit to improve Wikipedia. Whether such edits violate Wikipedia's policies is neither here nor there

        and

        Count Iblis does not recognize the validity of ArbCom rulings. He calls on all restricted editors to violate their restrictions and on all Admins to unblock editors who are blocked on Arbitration Enforcement grounds

        would, quite literally, if adopted by all editors, lead to complete anarchy on Wikipedia.
        Quite possibly, Count Iblis considers that possibility, of anarchy on Wikipedia, to be a good thing. I -- and I believe that vast majority of Wikipedia editors -- do not. We recognize that freedoms and responsibilities must be balanced, and that structure is necessary to ensure the continued existence of Wikipedia. We already spend much too much time litigating disputes between editors, and Count Iblis' version of an anarchic Wikipedia would increase that overhead tremendously. We'd be spending so much time ironing out disputes that no one would have any time to actually improve the encyclopedia.
        No, Count Iblis simply is not suited to be a Wikipedian, and his statements make that abundantly clear. Add to that the fact that he doesn't actually do anything to improve the encyclopedia (whether you agree with its purpose or not, there is no argument to be made that the Ref Desks improve the encyclopedia in any way shape, or form; they are purely an ancillary activity), and you've got a very strong argument for their being NOTHERE. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:40, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      Advocacy or support of grossly improper behaviors with no project benefit
      Statements or pages that seem to advocate, encourage, or condone these behaviors: [1] vandalism, copyright violation, edit warring, harassment, privacy breach, defamation, and acts of violence.
      From Count IbIis's User page:
      'Count Iblis rejects most of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. He just edits in any way he sees fit to improve Wikipedia. Whether such edits violate Wikipedia's policies is neither here nor there'.
      and:
      'Count Iblis does not recognize the validity of ArbCom rulings. He calls on all restricted editors to violate their restrictions and on all Admins to unblock editors who are blocked on Arbitration Enforcement grounds. Some banned editors have told me that they have been editing here anonymously and they are not being prevented from doing so. So, I guess ArbCom has a secret policy of tolerating banned editors here while publicly denying this to save face'.
      From the above I would suggest that CI is WP:NOTHERE, as his/her statements have strong potential to influence others to grossly harm the project. We do not know if this is humour, or his/her true belief.It appears to be a gross misunderstanding of WP:IAR, either by accident or design. That would indicate WP:CIR problems with communicating and functioning in the WP enviroment. Coupled with previous ref desk issues and the continued fascination with Godwin's law, I would say the community does have an issue here. I am not advocating a siteban, yet (although it may be the logical outcome) But I do believe some consensus on sanctions should be arrived at here. Simon Adler (talk) 20:21, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      User:Count Iblis, I have removed problematic material from your user page as per the guidance which I quoted in my post above. If you are comfortable with that, and do not revert, I would be willing to WP:AGF and change my position. A lot of the posters above may well agree and we can drop this issue. Please can you comment here? Regards, Simon Adler (talk) 05:29, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      References

      1. ^ Treatment such as excusing, trivializing, or normalizing these issues as tolerable or of little importance (for example, by explaining support of vandalism as being 'humor' or edit warring as being valid for resolving content issues) will generally be seen as having the same effect as condoning the behavior, and may also be removed.
      • If everything asserted at Count Iblis' user page is to be taken at facial value, then
        This user is visiting from an alternate universe.
      proves that we have indeed a clear cut case of wp:not here, this user being an alien from somewhere else. Pldx1 (talk) 09:13, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      But are we sure he's an undesirable alien? Maybe he's fleeing something much worse? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:11, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Alternate proposal - Topic ban

      Given that the above seems to be heading for a no-consensus result, let me propose an alternative:

      Count Iblis is banned from editing outside of the article space, except for the following reasonable exceptions: 1) To discuss article text on article talk pages 2) to notify people on their user talk pages of discussions pertaining to themselves 3) to respond to discussions on noticeboards where he is explicitly named as a party to the discussion. As points of emphasis, he is completely banned from discussions on the Reference Desks, Village Pumps, Help Desks, Teahouse, and User talk: Jimbo Wales, and banned from discussions on any admin noticeboard except those that involve himself as a named party.

      This should address the locus of CI's problems, remove the temptations from him, and return him (should he choose to do so) to editing article text in constructive ways. --Jayron32 13:54, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Do we have any proof, that CI has been editing Wikipedia disruptively? GoodDay (talk) 14:04, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Help request for page move from Autonomous cruise control system to Adaptive cruise control

      WP:RM started on users's behalves. --Izno (talk) 03:00, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      Help request for page move from Autonomous cruise control system to Adaptive cruise control. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Autonomous_cruise_control_system#Rename_to_%22adaptive_cruise_control%22 for more info.   Thanks, Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 01:28, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      2019 Arbitration Committee

      The Arbitration Committee welcomes the following new and returning arbitrators following their election by the community. Their two-year terms formally begin on 01 January 2019:

      All incoming arbitrators have elected to receive (or retain, where applicable) the checkuser and oversight permissions.

      We also thank our outgoing colleagues whose terms end on 31 December 2018:

      Outgoing arbitrators are eligible to retain the CheckUser and Oversight permissions, remain active on cases accepted before their term ended, and to remain subscribed to the functionaries' and arbitration clerks' mailing lists following their term on the committee. To that effect:

      • Stewards are requested to remove the permission(s) noted from the following outgoing arbitrators after 31 December 2018 at their own request:
        CheckUser: Euryalus, Newyorkbrad
        Oversight: Euryalus, Newyorkbrad
      • Outgoing arbitrators are eligible to remain active on cases opened before their term ended if they wish. Whether or not outgoing arbitrators will remain active on any ongoing case(s) will be noted on the proposed decision talk page of affected case(s).
      • All outgoing arbitrators will remain subscribed to the functionaries' mailing list.
      • All outgoing arbitrators will remain subscribed from the arbitration clerks' mailing list, with the exception of Euryalus and DGG at their request.

      The Arbitration Committee thanks DeltaQuad for volunteering to join the arbitration clerk team and appoints her a full clerk effective from the completion of her term as an arbitrator.

      For the Arbitration Committee,

      Katietalk 12:58, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#2019 Arbitration Committee

      Help with autoblock

      User talk:172.56.36.237 appears to be experiencing a cookie block. I've read through Wikipedia:Autoblock and Wikipedia:Administrators' guide/Blocking and I'm still at a loss as to how to determine where the autoblock is coming from and resolve it. Would having them clear their browser history work? ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 17:30, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Autoblocks are anonymized so the ONLY way the user can be helped is if they follow the EXACT instructions on the autoblock notice. That notice contains information that will allow an admin to find and fix the autoblock, however the admins can only see it if they autoblocked user follows the instructions for requesting an unblock. The block notice that the autoblocked user sees contains a 7-digit number that admins need to find the autoblock. --Jayron32 19:28, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      User:Nmatavka

      I noticed that in the previous thread where Nmatavka (talk · contribs) banned from creating pages in his userspace (for creating porn galleries in such area), there is a link to a subpage of his userspace, titled "Prawn", that contains exactly the type of content that got him edit-restricted (and later indefinitely blocked). I would like someone, not necessarily an administrator, to have this subpage and any similar ones deleted, whether by MfD or an applicable CSD – I do not wish to do so myself. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:33, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Done. ♟♙ (talk) 03:29, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      "exactly the type of content that got him edit-restricted"? It was a picture of a prawn/shrimp. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:41, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      And the user was blocked in 2012. Fish+Karate 13:51, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Please help

      handled--Jayron32 13:46, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

      The ref desk troll is out in force. Per usual all of the desks need protection and the edits need r/d as well. Any help will be appreciated. MarnetteD|Talk 09:00, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]

      Looks taken care of already. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:29, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[]
      The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
      Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&oldid=874318802"