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    This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups.

    Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
    Do you need assistance? Would you like to help?

    If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible.

    • This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion.
    • We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves.
    • The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor.
    • Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice.
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    If you need help:

    If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you.

    • This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy.
    • For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page.

    We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input.

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    • Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits.
    Open/close quick reference
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    Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
    Title Status User Time User Time User Time
    Sales data dispute on Chris Brown article Closed Instantwatym (t) 10 days, 15 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 21 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 21 hours
    Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV In Progress Avi8tor (t) 8 days, 22 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 19 hours Avi8tor (t) 1 days, 5 hours
    shakshuka Closed LEvalyn (t) 4 days, 10 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 22 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 22 hours
    Norse Deity pages New Dots321 (t) 1 days, 11 hours None n/a Dots321 (t) 3 hours
    List of South Korean girl groups New 98Tigerius (t) 1 days, 6 hours None n/a Ravinglogician (t) 17 hours
    Benevolent dictatorship New Banedon (t) 10 hours None n/a Banedon (t) 10 hours
    Talk:Taylor Swift New Gsgdd (t) 4 hours None n/a Gsgdd (t) 4 hours

    If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
    Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 11:46, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[]


    Current disputes[edit]

    Sales data dispute on Chris Brown article[edit]

    – General close. See comments for reasoning.
    Closed discussion
    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    Myself and another editor by the username theWikiholic have been involved in an ongoing dispute regarding total sales of artist Chris Brown on the following article: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Brown. The issue has already been discussed on the article talk page and in an ANI discussion started by theWikiholic (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1221291435#Usage_of_WP:Circular_sources_and_Disruptive_editing_to_promote_inflated_record_sales_on_Chris_Brown's_page). Our positions on this dispute are articulated well on the ANI discussion; as well as our reasons for disagreement. And there is no consensus either way.

    How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

    - Talk page discussion started by myself on the article page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chris_Brown

    - ANI discussion started by theWikiholic: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1221291435#Usage_of_WP:Circular_sources_and_Disruptive_editing_to_promote_inflated_record_sales_on_Chris_Brown's_page)

    How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

    Involve other neutral editors with familiarity of music certifications and sales to outline whether or not certifications equate to sales. If not, outline if total certified units (which in and of themselves are not a matter of dispute but rather a fact) can be simply be reported as certified units as opposed to sales in articles (e.g., Brown has certified ___ million units worldwide, as opposed to saying Brown has sold ___ million units worldwide based on his certifications).

    Summary of dispute by Instantwatym[edit]

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    Summary of dispute by theWikiholic[edit]

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    Sales data dispute on Chris Brown article[edit]

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

    Zeroth statement by volunteer (Chris Brown)[edit]

    Various editors have said that a Request for Comments may be the best way to resolve this dispute. Preliminary discussion may determine whether an RFC will be used. Please read DRN Rule A. Do the editors agree to moderated discussion subject to these rules? The purpose of dispute resolution is to improve the encyclopedia. Will each editor please state, concisely, what they want to change in the encyclopedia, or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    Statement 0.5 by volunteer (Chris Brown)[edit]

    Three days ago, I asked two questions, but the questions have not been answered. I will revise and restate the first question. Are the editors interested in moderated discussion subject to DRN Rule D? Chris Brown is a living person, and biographies of living persons are a contentious topic. If you agree to moderated discussion, you are agreeing that the procedures for contentious topics apply to any conduct issues. Second, please specify what in the article you want to change, or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. It is not necessary and is not helpful to wait until your edit-warring blocks expire. If you want moderated discussion, please answer. If you want this dispute resolved by an RFC, you can request moderated discussion, and the moderator will assist in writing the RFC.

    After edit-warring and being blocked, it is time for the editors to work with a moderator to resolve a content issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    Zeroth statements by editors (Chris Brown)[edit]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV[edit]

    – Discussion in progress.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    When it was founded, Wikipedia had many discussions in the early years to figure out what units to include or not include in articles, A compromise resulted in the USA and the UK having different primary units from the rest of the world, which seemed like a reasonable compromise. see Wikipedia:Measurements Debate. Editor Mr.choppers seems to think the MOS does not apply because a certain unit was used when a vehicle was initially sold, regardless of the wording in the Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Primary Unit.

    This problem goes back years, with Mr.choppers reverting every edit I make to do with which unit is primary. This time it stems from editing Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV, Mercedes-Benz Actros and numerous other vehicles going back years, I’d like a decision on what constitutes the primary unit.

    The next disagreement.

    The UK and the USA have received exemptions for strong national ties, which no other country has! But what is the criteria for “strong”, it seems to me that any ties to the USA or the UK are classed as strong national ties even if other editors say they may be weak or trivial. In the case of the Peugeot 505, it was exported to the USA and Australia so how do we get strong national ties to the USA? It is a French designed and manufactured car!

    The Manual of Style is apparently interpreted differently by different editors and needs clarifying. Is a strong national tie 50% or more than 50%? Who decides? Let’s take Tesla, whose cars are made in the USA, China and Germany, all units used in design and manufacture are SI units, so which country has strong ties and which units are primary? Well it is a Company headquartered in the USA, so that would give strong national ties.

    How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

    Talk:Peugeot_505 Units of Measurement.

    How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

    The manual of style states three options: In non-scientific articles with strong ties to the United States and the UK. In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units. Can an editor pick and choose something else because of the ambiguity of the remaining wording regardless of the statement "will be SI units"?

    Summary of dispute by Mr.choppers[edit]

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    The issue is that there are two kinds of horsepower, metric and non-metric. Most of the world (Europe, Japan, Latin America) uses metric hp, US and UK and some other english-speaking countries uses imperial hp, and a few countries like New Zealand, Asutralia, and South Africa have switched over to SI. There is no recognized standard for how to distinguish metric and non-metric hp (some use the German abbreviation PS for metric hp, but this is somewhat inappropriate for French or Italian cars, for instance). The definitions of these units are very similar, which often makes it hard to tell which unit is being used - sometimes you can tell from context. Non-english sources are almost certainly using metric hp. Here are the conversions, showing how close these units are:

    {{convert|100|hp-metric|kW|2}} 100 metric horsepower (73.55 kW)
    {{convert|100|bhp|kW|2}} 100 brake horsepower (74.57 kW)

    While many countries have officially switched to SI (kilowatts) over the last several decades, this process is by no means complete. Nearly all references, all magazines, all journals, and most manufacturers have held on to metric hp and it is still the primary unit in many situations and markets. I will be happy to provide links and examples if needed, but will limit myself to VW chairman Ferdinand Piëch laying down a target number of 1,001 metric horsepower (736 kW; 987 bhp) for the Bugatti Veyron in 2001. Metric hp is current, it is used industry wide, and I would argue that it remains the most commonly used unit worldwide outside of insurance companies and government offices.

    Don't get me wrong, though - I do not want metric hp to be the prime unit across Wikipedia. Kilowatts are the default lead unit for most cars of the last two-three decades, while imperial horsepower are still dominant in UK and US.

    What I recommend is that we always lead with the appropriate unit, instead of using a one-size-fits-all method. The appropriate unit is typically the one used in the car's home market when it was built, or the one used in the majority of reliable sources. It is rare that there is any conflict - the Peugeot 5CV, for instance, was built five decades before there was any thought to use kilowatts. Peugeot uses metric hp to describe it. The US-market Peugeot 505 is a bit less clear; for me, what matters is that the engines were heavily re-engineered for the US market, with federalized cars also receiving different sheet metal and a significant number of other technical changes. Again, all references for the US Peugeot 505 uses imperial hp to describe the car, from factory manuals to period articles to current writings about it.

    I am not entirely sure what Avi8tor wants to have changed, but describing a French car from the 1920s using kilowatts is anachronistic and in contradiction to MOS since it contradicts the units used in all reliable sources. There are always edge cases, like the US-market Peugeot 505, but those situations can and should be discussed. Avi8tor also has a problem getting metric v imperial hp mixed up with horsepower ratings systems like DIN vs SAE, gross versus net, and often drags in tax horsepower (which does not directly relate to power outputs) as well. Avi8tor has introduced factual errors, like here, where he carelessly changed the output from 110hp/81kW to 109hp/81kW. Minor to some, but still a factual error. Sorry about dragging you all into the bewildering world of horsepower...  Mr.choppers | ✎  13:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    Mr.choppers is quick to blame me for something I did not do. As you can see from his reversion, the stated value prior to my convert template inclusion was hp & kW, He was happy with those the day before with a previous edit until I got involved, I chose kW as the primary unit. You didn't like what I'd done and changed the convert template to metric-hp and kW. Neglecting to follow the manual of style for a European Vehicle which would be kW & PS or metric horsepower, whatever you want to call it. The difference between the two units is about 1 horse. Avi8tor (talk) 15:06, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[]
    I just realized that Avi8tor cherry-picked from the MOS above, so here is the relevant text as it applies to older automobiles:

    In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units (such as kilograms), non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.) I have shared this sentence with them on numerous occasions but it remains unacknowledged.  Mr.choppers | ✎  13:34, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV discussion[edit]

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

    Zeroth statement by moderator (Peugeot)[edit]

    Are the editors interested in moderated discussion, subject to DRN Rule A? If so, I will ask each of the editors to start off by stating what they want to change in the article, or what they want to change that another editor wants to leave the same. I understand that one issue has to do with the units of power. Are there any other content issues?

    If you are citing the Manual of Style, please state exactly what section in the MOS you are citing, just so that we don't have confusion about what rulebook is being used. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    The reference is Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Units of measurement/Unit choice and order. Shortcut MOS:UNIT or MOS:UNITS about halfway down the page.
    This debate in a nutshell is how we interpret the MOS. I see "In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units", Mr.choppers sees "or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.". Sources can be cherry picked depending on what country they are from. USA all imperial, Australia all SI. I live in France, the owners manual for my two cars give power in kW only, as do owners manuals in the UK. Mr Choppers live in the USA so he'd prefer NON SI units worldwide. I follow the MOS and place SI units primary for countries outside the USA and UK. The MOS needs to be fixed to remove the ambiguity. Less than 50% of Wikipedia users are from the US or UK, all those other countries use SI. Wikipedia is for an international audience. All owners manuals for cars in Europe (including the UK) have kW for Power. I can send a copy of that page. Avi8tor (talk) 04:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    Zeroth statements by editors (Peugeot)[edit]

    First statement by moderator (Peugeot)[edit]

    I will ask two questions that I have already asked, but that were not answered directly. First, do you agree to take part in moderated discussion, subject to DRN Rule A? Please read it (again, if you have already read it). Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. I will ask the questions, and you will address your answers to me and to the community. Be civil and concise. Participation in moderated discussion is voluntary, and it will not continue unless the editors agree to the rules. Second, please state briefly what you want to change in the article, and where, or what you want to leave the same that the other editor wants to change. If you want to change the units of measure of the power, specify all of the locations that you want to change. Do not, at this time, explain why, only what you want. We can discuss why later. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    First statements by editors (Peugeot)[edit]

    1) Of course. 2) I want the units of power to reflect the units used in reliable sources on the topic. For the Peugeot 505, that is kW/metric-hp (I would prefer to lead with metric-hp but it doesn't really matter) for all markets outside of North America, for the federalized cars I believe it should be non-metric hp and kW. This was the existing state of the article until 31 May 2024.  Mr.choppers | ✎  12:24, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    1. Yes.

    2. I think the manual of style needs to be more specific in that the primary unit outside the USA should be SI as stated in the MOS. Consistency of the displayed unit is important. The unit/s following can be non SI. This would include RPM, hands or whatever is used in that field. I believe this way every English speaker on the planet will understand the unit they are used to. Avi8tor (talk) 12:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[]


    Second statement by moderator (Peugeot)[edit]

    The Peugeot 505 article currently lists the power for all engines primarily in CV, which is metric horsepower, and also provides kW, and hp (imperial hp). The Peugeot 5CV article lists power primarily in hp, and also in kW. The SI unit of power is kW (kilowatts). (That is, the watt is the basic SI unit of power, and automobiles have power that can be measured in kilowatts.) I am asking that any editor who wants to list the power primarily either in CV or in hp should provide a reason. One editor referred to cars made for the US market, for which hp is the standard unit of power, but I see no mention in the article of any cars that were specifically made for the US market. So my question is what reason is there for using any measure other than kW as the primary measure.

    Are there any specific suggestions for how the MOS should be changed or clarified?

    Are there any other issues than the units of power? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    Second statements by editors (Peugeot)[edit]

    I think the primary problem is some editors read the statement "or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic" as meaning if they can find a source with their preferred unit, this gives them free reign to use a source unit other than kW, which I believe is not the intent of the MOS. Equally some argue that SI was not in existence so we can use the original unit.

    If a way can be found to more forcefully state the intent of the MOS or equally remove the statement that appears to give free reign.

    The other item not yet addressed is the "strong national ties". I see no strong national ties of this Peugeot model with the USA as it was still made in France and also exported to Australia. Reading the MOS on strong national ties, strong national ties has more to do with language and spelling in different countries. Avi8tor (talk) 06:02, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    Both the CV (this is one of many abbreviations in use; there is no recognized abbreviation for metric hp) in the 505 article and the "hp" in 5CV refer to metric horsepower. Leading with kW works for me for the 505 but is historically incorrect for the 5CV, which was designed and sold and only ever discussed in terms of metric horsepower. Using both horsepower units would have a silly result, since the difference is only 1.4 percent:
    {{cvt|11|hp-metric|kW hp}}: 11 hp (8.1 kW; 11 hp)
    Here are a few references for the 5CV; all use metric horsepower: [1], [2], [3], [4] (5CV cars in general, no mention of kW), [5], [6], [7],
    The MOS is fine as is; it reads In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units (such as kilograms), non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.) (underlining mine). Reliable source discussions are exclusively metric hp for the 5CV, mainly metric hp but also kW for the 505 (excluding North America). Leading with kW for the 505 is fine, incorrect for the 5CV. I would still argue that the 505 is primarily a metric-hp design, which is why you see nice, even, marketable power outputs of 110, 130, 150, 160, and 180 hp (m). In the 1980s, European manufacturers typically released both DIN (metric horsepower) and EEC (kilowatt) ratings, see period technical description, pages 16 and 17. They lead with metric hp, FWIW.
    The section Peugeot 505#North America is limited to North American-market cars - federalized cars were significantly re-engineered, due to the completely different regulatory environment in the US, and there is almost no overlap in content between this section and the remainder of the article. All power and torque figures are different and are specific to US market models. There are currently seven cited works in this section; every one of them uses imperial hp exclusively. Unlike British or Australian market models, the US 505 was not merely an export model, this version has strong ties to the US.
    I am not saying that I get to cherrypick because I managed to locate a single reference which uses one unit or the other - when reliable sources, period or current, do not use kW at all, then it is anachronistic and misleading to lead with kW. Metric market cars built pre-SI should not lead with kW. Examples include Mercedes 15/70/100 PS, which is literally named after the metric-hp power output. In 1962 the power of the Mitsubishi Minica increased from 13 to 13 kW (17 to 18 hp; 17 to 18 PS) - this looks ridiculous if you lead with kW. The Fiat Uno 75 (and all Fiats of the era) is named for its output in metric hp. The VW Golf TDI 140 is named for its output in metric hp (as was the rest of the lineup). Avi8tor has already been debating this at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Conventions#Power_and_Torque_units, where other editors agree that leading with the appropriate unit as per references is the correct option. But while the rest of the world continues to use metric hp as well as kW (with kW dominant for newer cars) to describe cars, Avi8tor is trying to create a one-size rule which will not make anyone happy and, which while meeting a particular reading of the MOS, violates other WP rules.
    The MOS leans towards SI units (which I agree with) but it also includes a carveout for using the units used in reliable source discussions. This is as it should be, because Wikipedia's purpose is also to reflect the sources as per WP:V. As per WP:SOAP it is not for us to ignore the units used by the manufacturer and by reliable sources (period and current), in an effort to advocate for SI adoption.  Mr.choppers | ✎  15:08, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    Third statement by moderator (Peugeot)[edit]

    Is this disagreement only about which unit of power is mentioned first? Is there agreement that kW will be mentioned? If so, is it really that important which unit is mentioned first?

    When I said to read and follow DRN Rule A, I forgot to restate Rule A.1, "Be civil and concise", and in particular I didn't emphasize rule A.1.2, which says to be concise. I didn't ask for a 660-word explanation of why we should lead with CV.

    An editor writes:

    I am not saying that I get to cherrypick because I managed to locate a single reference which uses one unit or the other - when reliable sources, period or current, do not use kW at all, then it is anachronistic and misleading to lead with kW. Metric market cars built pre-SI should not lead with kW.

    When an editor says that they are not saying that they get to cherrypick, they usually mean that they are defending their cherrypicking. The Peugeot 5CV is pre-SI. The Peugeot 505 is not pre-SI.

    The Manual of Style provides for project-specific style guides, and the style guide that applies to automobile articles is: Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobiles/Conventions#Power and torque. I will ask each editor to state concisely whether they agree that we should follow the conventions used by the WikiProject, or whether they think that the conventions should be changed, or whether they can provide a reason to deviate from the conventions. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:03, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    Are there any other content issues?

    Third statements by editors (Peugeot)[edit]

    I did not know of the existence of the WikiProject Automobiles/Conventions until you listed it. I had only the MOS to follow. It appears to be well written and covers what we have discussed, even if a little dated especially with the convert template where there is no need to have abbr=on or off, cvt does the former and convert the latter. But that can be fixed via the talk page.


    I think the Manual of Style WP:UNITS should be changed to read as follows (below) outside the United States and perhaps the United Kingdom (it appears that power in owner manuals in the UK lists power only in kilowatts) to avoid ambiguity (my suggested change in Bold).

    In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units, secondary units can be non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.)

    I'm making an assumption that strong national ties refers only to language ties as written in (MOS:TIES)? And would take the main corporate office location for manufacturing ties. Avi8tor (talk) 08:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    shakshuka[edit]

    – General close. See comments for reasoning.
    Closed discussion
    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    I think the article needs a full rewrite, since I would like to make it a GA. M.Bitton consistently reverts changes to the article.

    I attempted a range of improvements on April 18, April 19, May 12, May 21, June 14, and June 25. As you can see, I have tried different approaches each time, but continue to be reverted. This diff shows how little has changed.

    How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

    How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

    At the very least, maybe we could agree on a to-do list of the article's current problems. A more narrow ambition, perhaps we could resolve the article's coverage of etymology. Pipe dream, a better assessment of how to handle the dish's origin?

    Summary of dispute by M.Bitton[edit]

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    shakshuka discussion[edit]

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Norse Deity pages[edit]

    – New discussion.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    The inclusion of infoboxes, I saw that the Norse deity pages didn't include them when pages from other mythologies did like Greek, Roman, Canaanite, etc. But Bloodofox is against said inclusion of the infoboxes despite their inclusion on said previous articles.

    How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Thor#June_2024

    How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

    Either the removal of the deity info box template and subsequent removal from any pages using them or the inclusion of infoboxes for all Norse deities

    Summary of dispute by Bloodofox[edit]

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    Every so often, a user will come by and insist that we have infoboxes on these articles, demanding that since other articles have them, we must have them too. This always gets rejected as pointless (For example: 2008: "Infobox": Clear consensus against, 2011: "Infobox": Clear consensus against, 2017: "Infobox redux": Clear consensus against, etc.)

    This time the user insisting we use infoboxes has now so far been reverted by two editors: myself and @Yngvadottir: (who the user did not tag here). Our Norse myth-related articles have a long history of being not only some of the very best-sourced mythology related articles on the site, but the editors who built them consistently reject these as being unhelpful and misleading to the reader: gods are complex, with contradictory and/or source-dependent information surrounding them and no shortage of theories associated with them. Meanwhile, infoboxes treat them like some kind of car model or Marvel Comics character. They are at best redundant with the first few sentences or paragraph of these articles.

    Typical of these infobox demand flare ups, the user demanding we use infoboxes also insists that we bundle them with misinformation. Here the user has shown a poor understanding of the material they're editing about, insisting on misinformation Sif as "god of wheat", Baldr as "god of light", Odin as "god of wisdom, and so forth, like some kind of shoddy 19th century grade school text.

    As for invoking other (terrible) mythology-related articles as a defense for why we need infoboxes: Most of our myth and general folklore articles are unfortunately still awful and badly need to be rewritten from scratch but our Norse myth articles are fortunately in a much better state than most. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:36, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    Summary of dispute by VeryRarelyStable[edit]

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    Although this discussion has been ongoing, a comment of mine on Talk:Thor (following edits by Dots321 on Thor) has become the kernel of the current dispute.

    Thor and the other Norse mythology articles have a long consensus, if consensus it be, of disdaining the use of infoboxes as suitable for (for example) cartoon characters or cars or other "simple" subjects where all the facts are known. My opening comment pointed out that this attitude mischaracterizes the usage and purpose of infoboxes. That point is being ignored on the talk page now, where it is once again being asserted that infoboxes are not suitable because this is not a simple subject where all the facts are known.

    I tried to make clear that my comment was about the usage of infoboxes generally, but the ongoing dispute has (understandably but frustratingly) returned to the most recent specific infobox added to the page.

    —VeryRarelyStable 03:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[]

    Norse Deity pages discussion[edit]

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

    I'm not sure whether I should post to this page, or whether if so, it should be here, but Dots321 has also not mentioned that their infobox addition at Thor was first reverted by still another editor, TylerBurden, on grounds of lack of sourcing. Dots321 is focusing only on Bloodofox, but both in the past and currently (at Talk:Thor—as I recall, there have been past discussions also at the talk pages for Odin and Loki), Bloodofox is merely one of the editors who have discussed infoboxes in relation to Norse mythology articles and determined that there is no compelling reason for consensus against them to change. (The last of Bloodofox's discussion links above is wrong: the 2020 "Infobox, redux" discussion is here.) Dots321 suggests a ruling that Norse mythology articles must use the infobox, or else that the infobox must not be used anywhere. That's clearly outside the scope of this noticeboard, and it's an extreme false dichotomy (or maybe simply begging the question of whether infoboxes should be used consistently in deity articles). Before responding in the ongoing discussion, I reviewed the past discussions and I see no indication that the issue has been dismissed or that editors arguing for infoboxes have been treated disrespecfully, in the past or now. Also, while Dots321 is not alone on the talk page at present in advocating an infobox, at this point Dots321 is edit-warring in the Thor article. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:56, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[]

    The idea that I'm currently edit warring is false and in fact stopped on my second round of reverts to open this dispute. I didn't bring up TylerBurden because the incident with them is irrelevant to this current discussion. Tyler burden assumed what i added was not on the articlse when in fact they were, I even went as far as finding and linking a source that was already present on the Sif page see [[8]].
    I will also note to Bloodofox and potentially Yngvadotir that it is not allowed to comment on the contributor on this noticeboard but only their contributions. Bloodofox is very much allowed to comment on the quality of my contributions but the needless attacks against me like "Typical of these infobox demand flare ups, the user demanding we use infoboxes also insists that we bundle them with misinformation. Here the user has shown a poor understanding of the material they're editing about, insisting on misinformation Sif as "god of wheat", Baldr as "god of light", Odin as "god of wisdom, and so forth, like some kind of shoddy 19th century grade school text." are very much unwarranted and uncivil in discussion.
    Onto about my proposed resolution I am someone how likes things to be standardized which is why I implemented infoboxes in the first place. So the resolution I proposed was very much steeped in this philosophy. Even though I am aware that the first proposed resolution is out of the scope of this noticeboard I proposed it to at least start some discussion about the subject my bad on my end.
    I will now discuss why I think infoboxes are beneficial. Bloodofox and Yngvadottir dislikes the use of infoboxes as they claim that they are redundant and over simplify the subject. While i do agree that infoboxes simplify the subject as that is their purpose, I disagree that they are redundant. As although they can just implement information already said at the beginning of the article, they can also bring information from further down the article. Like if a god is the equivalent with another god from a different mythology, as those are generally further down an article. And thus only readers who read the whole article or those that would read the subsection would know about that subject. Thus if an infobox was implemented readers who aren't those types and would just read the summery would be informed on a subject they would otherwise not know of. Although infoboxes are simple if the reader is interested enough they will read the article for a more detailed summery. Dots321 (talk) 10:13, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[]

    I believe the consensus against infoboxes on Norse mythology pages is based on a misreading of the use and implication of infoboxes. If anything their purpose is the opposite of what is being asserted: to take a subject complex enough the article itself cannot be reduced to a simple list of facts, but sufficiently entangled with other subjects that a reader might need to quickly look up one fact about them without having to wade through a complex article, and present a bullet-point version of such facts as are known about the subject.

    I must also question Bloodofox's assertion above that "our Norse myth articles are fortunately in a much better state than most". The Norse myth articles are in a terrible state. They appear to be written solely for the benefit of readers who are already scholars, as they take familiarity with the intricate procedures involved in folklore scholarship as a prerequisite for reading the article. I don't believe this is the intention, but they are being curated by people who are familiar with scholarly procedure and have apparently forgotten that not everyone is.

    —VeryRarelyStable 03:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[]

    Most of our Norse mythr-elated articles are written to WP:GA standards by way of the tireless efforts of our efforts—one of the few on the site that care about the quality of folklore-related articles—and are objectively heads and shoulders above all other mythology-related articles on the site. They are by and large written using the highest quality sources available. Just about everything other group of myth-related articles on the site are poorly-referenced opinion pieces, often with terrible sourcing. From the sounds of it, this is a you problem: you might consider less time on talk pages and more time getting familiar with the basics before commenting. :bloodofox: (talk) 06:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[]
    From the sounds of it, this is a you problem: you might consider less time on talk pages and more time getting familiar with the basics before commenting This right here is very much unwarranted and goes against
    This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion.
    Dots321 (talk) 10:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[]

    List of South Korean girl groups[edit]

    – New discussion.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    A disagreement about why putting an end year to some active group just because they don't have group activity this year.

    How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

    Talk:List of South Korean girl groups#Year active

    How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

    To have a consensus whether to put an end year or put "present" instead to those active groups.

    Summary of dispute by Hotwiki[edit]

    Some editors in that talk page are arguing why the present year for the girl group - Blackpink isn't included. That girl group has ZERO group activity in 2024. When I asked those two editors to give a 2024 activity for the group, that would warrant being labeled as an active group in the present year, they couldn't give any. Its purely misinformation, to change it to "2016–present", when the girl group hasn't been active in the year 2024 yet.Hotwiki (talk) 09:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    Summary of dispute by Ravinglogician[edit]

    One type of information that this page provides for the listed groups is their period of activity, usually of the form “‹start year›–‹end year›” or “‹start year›–present”. Typically the former indicates that that the group officially announced its disbandment or some kind of extended hiatus, while the latter indicates the absence of such an event, i.e. the group is still active.

    Recently however a few of us noticed that one editor has unilaterally declared a different standard to ascertain active status, namely “has the group performed a group activity in the calendar year in question”. I think this is problematic for a number of reasons:

    1. The editor in question claims that they check the group's social media accounts, search for articles about them etc, thus determining that no such activity has occurred. This is effectively Original Research, instead of relying on a reputable outside source making the claim that the group is not active.
    2. The main pages of these groups still list them as “‹start year›–present”. I believe having such inconsistencies between pages is undesirable, and the way to resolve them is by deferring to the subject matter experts, i.e. the editors maintaining a group's main page.
    3. This standard is unlikely to be applied consistently even within the page itself, due to the laborious and inherently unreliable nature of determining it.
    4. Finally I believe this editor's standard of activity defies most people's expectations, as evidenced by multiple editors disagreeing with them on the talk page; by the editors of the groups' main pages obviously using a different standard; and by frequent attempts to modify the page to the commonly accepted idea of a group being active, that the editor in question then reverts.

    This dispute has mainly revolved around Blackpink, with Mamamoo and Girls' Generation also having been brought up. Ravinglogician (talk) 20:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[]

    List of South Korean girl groups discussion[edit]

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

    Benevolent dictatorship[edit]

    – New discussion.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    Me and LokiTheLiar (and some other editors, but mostly the two of us) have been engaged in a long-running dispute about whether to include examples in the page. We've gone through RfCs and pings to WP:Politics, but never got anywhere; in fact the latest dispute suggests we even interpret the close reason for the previous RfC differently.

    How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

    [9]

    How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

    I don't believe more discussion between me and LokiTheLiar will lead anywhere; we simply disagree on a fundamental level and there's no prospect that will change. Any further discussion will just be rehashing old arguments.

    Weighing in on how to interpret the close reason would be a good start.

    Summary of dispute by LokiTheLiar[edit]

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    Benevolent dictatorship discussion[edit]

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

    PS: Courtesy ping to Tayi Arajakate as the closer of the RfC (although as far as I can tell, they are inactive). Banedon (talk) 03:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[]

    Talk:Taylor Swift[edit]

    – New discussion.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    i think intro is written in fan point of view. i tried to change it. involved editors repeatedly revert my edits. i tried to place tag POV lead - so that i can get opinion from uninvolved users - but that was also reverted too. I already have several editors agreeing to the issue, even supporting placing the tag. What is the best option to get consensus. Can this tag be placed?

    How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taylor_Swift See last topic

    How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

    Please place POV lead tag - so that uninvolved wiki editors can review and contribute to fix the issue

    Talk:Taylor Swift discussion[edit]

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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