Wikipedia talk:Verifiability

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• Wikipedia:Verifiability/Proposed revision
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Please do not feed the trolls

Naming no names here, but please do not support any trolling that may be occuring. I, for one, have not been participating in much of the previous discussion for this reason. Thanks for your time! JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

A thought: Tacitus' recommendation

nos consensum auctorum secuturi, quae diversa prodiderint sub nominibus ipsorum trademus.		Proposing as I do to follow the consentient testimony of historians, I shall give the differences in their narratives under the writers' names.
Tacitus, Annals XIII, 20 – Church/Brodribb translation

WP:VERIFY shortcut

I added this a couple of minutes ago for the simple reason that it's a likely search term for anyone looking for this page, and it's possible that newer users might not immediately think of V (which could be vandalism or viewpoint). ProhibitOnions 13:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Multiple sources

I support this edit. -Lumière 17:22, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Raphael1 17:25, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

It contradicts the policy. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not necessarily a contradiction, instead it is an additional recommendation, which could improve Wikipedias quality. If you wish, I can change the last sentence to "This shows that it is recommended to verify by multiple independent sources." Raphael1 18:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Please read the policy page you're editing. What you added contradicts the rest of it. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:37, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Please WP:AGF. Of course I've read the article. It says, that an article need to be verifiabile by a reliable source. Where is the contradiction to my recommendation, that multiple independent sources are even better? Wikipedia articles are certainly not necessarily true, but wouldn't it improve Wikipedia, if they actually were "true"? Raphael1 19:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

The example you gave contradicted: ""Verifiability" in this context does not mean that editors are expected to verify whether, for example, the contents of a New York Times article are true. In fact, editors are strongly discouraged from conducting this kind of research, because original research may not be published in Wikipedia. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false." SlimVirgin (talk) 19:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Why would be citing the Washington Post an original research, whereas citing the New York Times is not? Raphael1 19:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

No one said it would be. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Then I can't see, why my recommendation to verify with multiple independent sources would be a contradiction to the policy. Raphael1 23:37, 17 March 2006 (UTC)]

Raphael1, my advice is to never mention the word "true" or "truth" here. (-; -Lumière 19:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, we just have to wait to see if we have consensus or not. -Lumière 19:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Things are not black and white. The policy is not a text of law. We are obviously considering cases where the material is controversial (highly political, etc.) and sources that are reputable for this kind of information might not be easy to find. It is perfectlty in accord with the policy to argue against the reputability of a source, and when no individual source can be totally trusted, it is just common sense to consider more than one source. -Lumière 18:56, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Proposed improvements

Even New York Times articles are false sometimes. Flawed reporting by New York Times reporter Judith Miller helped to promote the misleading belief that Iraq possessed large stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. One of Miller's prime sources was Ahmed Chalabi, who is currently the interim oil minister of US occupied Iraq. This shows that it is strongly recommended to verify by multiple independent sources.

I would change it to:

Some material can be controversial. Outlandish claims beg strong sources. In such a case In some cases, even the New York Times might not qualify as a reputable source. For example, flawed reporting by New York Times reporter Judith Miller helped to promote the misleading belief that Iraq possessed large stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. One of Miller's prime sources was Ahmed Chalabi, who is currently the interim oil minister of US occupied Iraq. In such a case, when no single publication qualifies as a reputable source, it is necessary to verify by multiple independent sources. In all cases, it is preferable to provide multiple independent sources.

and I would put it as a new subsection in the section about sources under the header ===Multiple independent sources===. It does not contradict the policy. I want to know if other editors feel that it is in opposition with the spirit of this policy. I think it is not.

-Lumière 17:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I support your change. Raphael1 16:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

*remark*

Don't see any form of consensus for the text proposals above, neither for the first version nor for the second version. It's not even clear who authored them.

I revert the policy page to SlimVirgin's = Jossi's version per {{policy}} template: "make sure that changes you make to this policy reflect consensus before you make them." Neither the wikipedian sometimes known as "Lumière", neither "Raphael1" appear to have assured that, and rather appear as if they're testing how far they can go before someone actually calls it WP:POINT. --Francis Schonken 17:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

No problem. We were not testing anything. It is just that SlimVirgin and others do make edits, sometimes relatively important, without checking consensus. So, because I was told that admins and experienced editors do not have special previleges, I tend to follow their examples as a way to respect the rules. -Lumière 17:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Francis Schonken, don't you want to tell us why you don't want that addition, rather than just informing us that you don't consent? Raphael1 17:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Major changes and/or additions to policy pages require wide community consensus. The burden to seek that consensus is on the editor that want to add new content. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

In particular when the editors wanting to make such changes are relatively new to Wikipedia. Please respect the current wide consensus achieved in current versions of policy pages. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:38, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I think the proposal is reasonable. Just forget about who is proposing it, in case it matters to you. -Lumière 18:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear jossi, do you agree or disagree to the addition? If you disagree, please explain why. Raphael1 19:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Raphael, please stop trying to change the meaning of this policy. You're a new editor who has made 79 edits to 18 articles, most of which show you trying to challenge what Western newspapers have said about events in the Middle East, [1] and now you're trying to change this policy to help you. If you want to change the thrust of a policy (which your edits would do), you need wide-ranging consensus, wider even than all the editors on this page agreeing with you, which they don't. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:38, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Raphael, SlimVirgin and a few more editors that have taken the mission to protect the policy don't like when other editors work on the policy pages or in their talk page except if they feel that they are still in control. It is not because you have few edits in specific topics. I have seen them acting in the same way with experienced editors that have been working on a variety of topics. I have also seen them being positive with new editors that proposed change to the policy, but only when they feel they are still in control. There is a rule that says that we should not edit the policy pages without checking for consensus. If because you have worked on specific topics or for any other reason, they feel you may easily oppose their views, you are quickly reminded of this rule. Only these few editors can violate this rule. In this way, they keep control over the policy pages. The exigence for a community wide consensus only applies if in their view you try to "change the thrust of a policy".

In my opinion, what you do is very natural. You have been working on some articles and perhaps realized that the policy was an important tool. It is normal to care about the tools that we use. So, you decided to participate in the improvement of this policy. That new editors wants to improve the policy can be very healthy for Wikipedia. However, I think that you are wise to not oppose these few editors, which have taken the mission to protect the policy. In my opinion, there is hope that we can work all together (with these few editors) to improve the policy. Just stick around and whenever you have another idea for improvement, just propose it, or participate in the discussion of other proposals. If we are friendly, others might join. My hope is that, as a group, we can accomplish something. -Lumière 09:35, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think these changes would be good in the suggested form because they don't specify the requirements for rejecting a source in a way that allows us to avoid our own opinions. We already have the ability to cite more than one source, including sources that disagree, and we already have the ability to report controversial claims as claims or opinions. --Zero^talk 08:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Self-published sources in articles about themselves

The section with this name has problems. One is that most of the ruleset is given in the context of an extreme example (Stormfront) which is not representative of most self-published sources. This gives a wrong impression and artificially justifies rules that might be too strict for more common cases such as the home page of an uncontroversial person or organization.

Three examples which seem to violate the rules but should not, in my opinion:

• Suppose my personal home page says I was born in Nairobi but CNN says I was born in Vienna. Unless there is some clear reason for which I would want to lie about my place of birth, I think we should use Nairobi. Clearly I am in a better position to know this information than CNN is. (Principle: some uncontroversial information on which a person or organization is the clear authority should be taken directly from that source - this is the principle of preferring primary sources over secondary sources where appropriate.)

• If you say you were born in Nairobi, but CNN says Vienna, we go with Vienna. See V, NOR, RS, and BLP. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

My intention was to start a discussion on what the policy should be. Your opinion on what the policy says now is relevant but does not constitute a rebuttal. In my opinion, the policy is steadily edging towards "Wikipedia is a collection of claims; we don't care whether they are right or wrong." I don't believe this was either the intention of Wikipedia's founders or the opinion of most Wikipedia editors. At some point the need to control original research led to the baby being thrown out as well. We should identify the places where the existing rules do not have the most desirable effect and fix them. --Zero^talk 23:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want to change the principal of "verifiability, not truth," you'll have to change the no-original-research policy too, but these policies are essential to the way Wikipedia functions. Individual editors can't set themselves up as judges of what's true, or as though they are journalists who interview primary sources. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, you are not the only that does it, but it is not consistent with the definition of primary source which is cited in the policy (see wikilink in WP:NOR#Primary_and_secondary_sources) to refer to people as primary sources. We do not interview primary sources. Every source is some fixed information, which in the case of a primary source may take the form of a picture, a manuscript, some piece of evidence in a trial, the transcript or video of an interview, etc. People say one thing at one time and another thing at another time, so they are not primary sources. I would not be surprised that even guidelines and perhaps even the policy do the mistake of contradicting its own definition, but we should stop doing that. I have not found examples where the policy refers to primary sources as persons. If there is such an example, it is in contradiction with the definition that the policy cites and uses most of the times thereafter. Of course, I am not referring to the general term "source", but only to the technical expressions "primary sources" and "secondary sources". -Lumière 11:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

What some people should stop doing is redefining words to support their own agendas. News reporters, historians, biographers, investigators etc. "interview sources" all the time. "Source" means [Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 10th ed.] "1(3): one that supplies information" and "2(3): a firsthand document or primary reference work." The word's use to describe a person is therefore more common than its use to describe a document. Lumiere-Etiencelle, before claiming what a word means, you should first check a dictionary. It's always a whole lot easier to obfuscate than to clarify.Askolnick

I see that The One With Many Names has "rebutted" my comment by simply emphasizing the words "in the policy." However, from the top to bottom, the policy uses the word "source" to mean "one that supplies information." For example, the very first rule to be observed: "Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources." The meaning of "source" can not possibly be "a firsthand document of primary reference work" because documents and reference works cannot publish. Only individuals, groups, or organizations of people can publish. The policy repeatedly refers to "sources" as publishing. Either Lumiere-Etincelle-Lumiere-Amrit has a serious reading comprehension problem, or he is simply trying to win an argument by obstruction and obfuscation. Askolnick 15:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

And yet another attempt to obfuscate and obstruct. In his latest revised rebuttal, Lumiere, a.k.a. those other names, demonstrates again that he is unwilling to accept correction. Right there in the references he just added, is the statement: "Wikipedia articles include material on the basis of verifiability, not truth. That is, we report what other reliable sources have published, whether or not we regard the material as accurate." As I clearly pointed out, documents cannot publish, only people and organizations publish. The word "source" is used in Wiki policies to describe both the supplier of information as well as the actual document or record containing the information. L-E-L-A's persistent attempt to deny this fact is another example of his continuing disruptive obfuscations. Askolnick 17:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Lumiere, saying the same thing louder doesn't make you any more convincing. Coyoty 19:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Lumiere adds another ridiculously false statement to keep the rest company. Now he tries to narrow down what he had said to mean not "sources" but "primary sources" and "secondary sources." And says he is unable to find examples of the use to mean people or organizations. How about trying Reliable Sources [2] , oh One With So Many Names? Those guidelines have numerous examples of such usage. For example:

Independent secondary sources:

There is separate editorial oversight. This

means that they have different employers, or

different editors (but not necessarily publishers).

Have not collaborated in their efforts.

May have taken their own look at the available

primary sources and used their own judgment in evaluating them

Clearly none of these statements make sense if "sources" means "document" instead of "person," "persons," or "organization." So, Lumiere formerly Etincelle formerly Lumiere formally Amrit, why do you keep compounding one transgression on top of another as you're doing here? Will there ever be an end to this disruptive conduct? Askolnick 21:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

We can continue in your user talk page. Here is the main point -Lumière 21:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

• Often respectable news organizations quote a few words or sentences from a longer document that can be found on a web site that is generally of dubious reliability (maybe a personal site but this example is more general). In that case we should be able to quote additional text from the document and cite its location. (Principle: we can use documents that respectable sources have judged authentic enough to quote from, not only the fragments that they quoted.) Note that I'm not saying we should regard the document as true, but we shouldn't be blocked from quoting it as a claim or opinion.

• It would depend on the website. The news organization might have had solid legal and editorial reasons for quoting only the part they did. If the website really is dubious and is making claims about third parties, we could not use the material. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Newspaper stories usually only quote small fragments with ellipses. I don't see why we can't flesh them out by filling in the gaps and quoting surrounding sentences. And I think we should always be able to give a link to the full version of a document which is quoted by a source we cite, regardless of whether we quote additional parts of it. --Zero^talk 23:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

We don't use dubious websites or personal websites as sources, except in articles about themselves. That is the policy as it stands. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

• When a serious charge is made against a person or organization and that person or organization has published a denial, we should always be allowed to cite the denial. In fact, in most cases we should cite the denial. (Principle: be fair)

• Yes, because the material is then about them, so they're not being used as third-party sources. See V, RS, and BLP. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, "about themselves" should be clarified. If an article about person A has a paragraph about person B, then "about themselves" should apply to B for the material in that paragraph. Otherwise we have the anomoly that the sources allowed for some information depends on which article that information appears in. We should consider changing "articles about themselves" to something like "for information regarding themselves". --Zero^talk 08:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

You have to be very careful here, otherwise you get yourself into a situation where person A can manipulate the contents of Wikipedia by putting something up on their personal website, then adding it to their own Wikipedia article, or to a paragraph about them in another article, using their website as the source. If a serious charge is made about a person, then of course their rebuttal is published, but otherwise people are not allowed to influence the contents of our articles by simply adding material to their own websites. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the source allowed varies from article to article. If A is regarded as a dubious source, A could be a source on A (and in an article about A), but not on B (or in an article about B), even if it's in the same sentence. In an article about SlimVirgin, you may quote me saying, "SlimVirgin is a wonderful human being," but you may not quote, "and Zero steals his clothes from charity shops." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I intended to make the point more about facts than about opinions. In an article about you, we would take basic information like your educational background from your web page and nobody would object. But if you appear in a different article (about a subject in which you played some role), then we aren't allowed to mention your educational background unless we can find an alternative source for it. That can't be right. Either your web page is a valid source for such information or it isn't. --Zero^talk 23:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The policy acts to limit the extent to which I could influence the contents of Wikipedia simply by adding material to my own website. But I have to add that, even in an article about me, information from my website could only be used with caution, and only if not contradicted by reliable, published, third-party sources. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

But how do you know what "the facts" are? Especially when they are so often highly disputed, and when anyone can create a webpage to promote his/her own version of "the facts"? If we appoint Wikipedia editors as arbiters of "the facts", then, by definition, we are insisting that they do original research. Wikipedia recognizes that "the facts" are slippery at best; instead, it sets itself the more reasonable goal of citing what reliable sources say about a subject. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't even disagree with you. I don't object to the OR and V rules in general principle (though I really dislike that "verifiability, not truth" slogan). The difficulty is that it just shifts the decision-making to a different place. Instead of deciding what the truth is, the editor has to decide which sources are "reliable". "Reliability" is better than "truth" because we can bulk-ordain some classes of sources as "reliable", but when we move outside those classes we are back into slippery territory. We try to make the reliability decision algorithmic by giving lots of guidelines, but (A) there are lots of cases where the result of applying the guidelines is unclear and subjective judgement is still required, (B) sources that are "reliable" according to the guidelines often disagree so then we get arguments about relative reliability, and (C) in some cases I think the guidelines don't select the most reliable sources. An example of (C), imo, is the case of innocuous personal information, which I argued above. The cases of (A) and (B) are more serious issues, but one thing at a time. --Zero^talk 12:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Using your examples, while we can state in the article that your web site says you were born in Nairobi, we also must state that CNN says you were born in Vienna. Many celebrities do distort their bios, and it would be against this policy to try to make a determination of which source is correct. If there is conflicting information, we can only provide sources for the different version, and let the reader sort it out.

I wonder who ₍Al Lewis) would distort their bio like that. Coyoty 18:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

On your second point, please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#The leap-frogged citations problem. As for your third point, that is part of the NPOV policy. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 12:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Slim and Donald, and note this is what the founder feels on the issue too, see Wikipedia talk:Fame and importance where Jimbo states What is it that makes (something) encyclopedic? It is that it is information which is verifiable and which can be easily presented in an NPOV fashion. and also When I say 'verifiable' I don't mean 'in some abstract fantasy theory' I mean actually practically verifiable by Wikipedians. Jimbo basically places WP:NOR, WP:V and WP:NPOV at the heart of wikipedia policy. A person's website may be considered a valid source of information about that person, but information which contradicts it should also be presented. Steve block talk 12:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Fictional Characters

There is currently a huge debate in Freddy Krueger over wether or not this policy should apply. He is a pop culture icon, and nothing said about him is fact since the films change so much information. When attempting to add information, people jump your case saying none of your additions are from verifiable sources when, in fact, none of the information on the page is. Most of it is from the films, which people claim are not verifiable, the rest is from a not-so-widely known book called The Nightmare Never Ends, a history of the making of and plot of the films that includes a Freddy backstory. I believe there should be some kind of ammendment to this policy for articles about fictional characters, especially those from films and books. I think it's safe to say if we went by print articles vs the actual films, Boba Fett would still be alive.
--The Skunk 21:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Surely the films themselves count as sources? I.e. if I state, say, "According to Christian tradition, God didn't let Abraham into the promised land" I don't have to find a secondary source that says this, I can use the Bible. I'd say the situation with fictional characters in movies is analogous: statements in Krueger's bio is verifiable if it actually occurs in one of the movies. As for "nothing said about him is fact since the films change so much information," why then not deal with the differences directly. I.e. in movie 1 Krueger met character X in 1918. In movie 3 Krueger met character X in 1999, or whatever. I doubt WP:V needs to change; I could be wrong however. Mikker ^... 21:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The "films themselves" can only be sources if there is an agreed-upon way to cite them that allows the citations to be verified easily. Obviously we can't accept an editor saying something like "It's in the film because I say so and I know what I'm talking about."

I'm not involved in the debate... just a personal opinion... it seems to me that in the case of a film that is widely available on DVD, it should be possible to reference the specific edition DVD itself and give a scene number and/or the number of minutes into the film. For example, "A Nightmare on Elm Street 2 - Freddy's Revenge," (1985), New Line Home Video DVD (2000; ASIN: 0780630858), [description of scene], appears at 68 minutes into the film"

The point of the verifiability policy is to make it possible to check to see that the source really says what the contributor says it says. In the case of a book source, we accept that it is not necessary to have the instant access of clicking on a link; it may take a trip to the library, and/or an interlibrary loan request, and some books may be hard for some people to get access to. A mass-produced DVD is as accessible as a book. And the number of minutes at which the action being referenced occurs serves the same function as a page number: once you have the book/DVD, you can locate the reference in minutes rather than having to spend hours reviewing the entire work.

One of the reasons for the verifiability policy is that even when someone is citing a real reference in good faith, it is amazing how easy it is to put just a little bit of spin on it without even meaning to. It's very important that someone be able to go back and check the context and the actual words...

(In the case of the Bible, for example, you wouldn't say "it's in the Bible." You'd literally cite chapter and verse. And quite often someone checking such a reference might find that there was some possibly-disputable interpretation involved...)

Anyway, as I say it's not formal policy, but if someone cited a DVD's title/distributor/ASIN number and the number of minutes into the film, if someone else were to remove it on the basis merely of not being a print reference, I'd think most people would say that is an unreasonable application of the verifiability policy.

Availability on DVD is important here. I wouldn't be so inclined to accept a reference to an actual physical film print because personally I don't even know how I could get access to a print, or a 35mm projector, to check such a reference.

What we can't do, of course, is to say that just because it's a movie, we won't require sources, or will accept a lower standard of verifiability than we would for anything else. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

So, we have to use sources, no one else does? None of the info on that page specificly is sourced. They don't even source the book their info came from!

I mean, it seems to me that all information in the entire Wiki should be done this way, but it can't. Not only that, even if I DID supply sources, they'd still delete it, because I asked and the people who apparently don't like their wrong information corrected said you can't because it isn't in print by a refutable author. It isn't fair. I thought this was the free encylopedia, that can be edited by everyone. Obviously not everyone can edit it if you say that! Further more, the fact that these people who keep re-editing the article don't know enough about the films to be able to do so. For example, one editor added in Freddy's jump rope song and had the words wrong. No sources! Didn't cite a freaking thing. No one questioned him, no one removed it, the only thing they did was fix it. Still no sources. You're imposing rules on some members, and not on others.

How can that be fair?

--The Skunk 06:35, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

1) The verifiability rule does apply to the entire Wikipedia and everything in it should be sourced. Most experienced Wikipedians understand this. 2) The application of Wikipedia policy is never "fair" because there is no central authority that could apply it evenly and impartially. And Wikipedia so huge that doing anything systematically is slow. For example, there is total agreement that images that are not properly licensed must be removed, but the process of removing them has been going on for well over a year. While it is in progress, there will be some images that have been removed and other similar one that have not been. That may seem "unfair." 3) You and other editors should not be trying to game the system or selectively apply rules in order to establish pecking orders or dominance hierarchies. But, human nature being what it is, it happens.

An important reason for the verifiability policy is that without it, you get exactly what you are observing: sterile personal battles between people of different opinions claiming personal expertise.

Don't argue that your unsourced material shouldn't have been removed. Instead, set a good example by adding some well-sourced material yourself. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

P. S. If someone says material is from "a book" it is completely fair to ask them to cite the book and to remove the material after a reasonable amount of time if nobody can find the book it came from. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:15, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

While I admit I'm slightly swayed by Dpbsmith's "minute and second on DVD = chapter and verse in bible" argument, after careful consideration I must disagree.

• When we quote and/or paraphrase from a source like the bible or a trascript, were simply moving the same media from one location to another: text → text. There is room for spin, or selective quoting, or any number of other ways to introduce bias, of coure. These however are all fairly transparent once the actual material is at hand.
• Watching a DVD, even at the exact moment specified, and putting the results into Wikipedia is different: video → text. But for the most trivial and mundane cases, this will require interpretation of the events. We'd not be talking about "Character A walks through a door at 43 minutes 15 seconds," we'd be looking at things like "Character B demonstrates his disgust with the situation as he walks through a door and slams it behind him at 43 minutes 15 seconds."

The overwhelming majority of the time when these "Dude, I totally saw it on the film! Watch it yourself!" arguments are raised it is because either other sources for the material do not exist or the editor has not taken the time and trouble to locate them. For the former, we should be asking ourselves the question is this information so trivial that it dooesn't belong in the article, for the latter {{sofixit}}.

Additionally, we'd be opening the door to almost all forms of direct observation here. "Cherry Garcia's flavour is marred by an astringent aftertaste, as easily confirmed by simply going out, buying a carton, and eating it." This would be a very bad thing. I'd say let's stick to Reliable sources and let Freddy K fans just look a bit harder four sources. For any signifigant all but the most obscure film released, there will be reviews in print that cover major plot points, interviews with the actors about the motivations of thier characters, op-ed pieces about how the violence is corrupting our youth in tabloids, etc etc etc.

brenneman^{L} 07:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you but there are some fine shades here. You're saying that print sources have a standing that cinema does not because of the possibility of direct quotation. True. However, there is no rule that says the only allowable use of print sources is as direct quotation. Paraphrases and interpretation are acceptable as long as the reader can check them. To continue with the Bible example, consider:

1) Christians cannot be soldiers, because the Bible prohibits it.

2) The Bible says "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV: Exodus 20:13, Romans 13:9).

3) Christians cannot be soldiers, because the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV: Exodus 20:13, Romans 13:9).

4) Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV) is cited by some authorities [cite] [cite] as an argument against war .

5) Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV) is cited by some authorities [cite] [cite] as an argument against war but this passage is variously translated ("Thou shalt not commit murder," NEB) and other authorities [cite] [cite] say that it clearly refers only to the crime of murder, and does not apply to legal, authorized acts of killing, as in war or capital punishment

1 is unacceptable. "The source is the Bible" won't wash. 2 is acceptable. 3 is unacceptable because the passage has a proper source, but the opinion ([therefore] Christians cannot be soldiers) does not. 4 is acceptable (or would be if it had real citations) under the verifiability policy, but not the neutrality policy. 5 is acceptable.

Anyway, I say that citation of minutes-and-seconds-into-a-DVD ain't bad, is much better than nothing, and would probably inhibit most Wikipedians from removing the material as unsourced. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

P. S. I'm not suggesting that "cite movies with DVD ASIN number and minutes" should be formally added to any policy. But around the borders of any policy we try to apply reasonable initiative and common sense. I don't think that our policy says that a bad reference is worse than no reference. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:46, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem of introducing interpretation by selective citation is not at all unique to fictional works of any media. While there has been (and to a degree continues to be) considerable tolerance for editors including uncontroversial (or uncontested) facts without the minutiae of cited sources, any time there are challenges regarding material, we have to fall back on citing verifiable sources for the information. That is merely the first hurdle however. Simply because someone somewhere (even in "reputable" publications) has said something does not necessarily make that an unvarnished fact. If what has been said is an interpretation, then it has to be presented in the article as such and attributed as such (i.e., authority so-and-so says such-and-such) and not presented as a simple unattributed factual assertion.

More to the point of the original topic here--if the assertions are of the sort "this character says XYZ" or "character M go to P locale" or "in Film A of the series the character said he was from X while in Film B of the series he said he was from Y" other such simple formulations, then I think Dpbsmith's suggestion for citing a specific edition of a DVD is sufficent. But if there is an attepmt at interpretation or making some rationalization of discrepencies -- that requires some source other than the original works, otherwise it is original research. older ≠ wiser 13:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

It occurs to me that movies also have scripts which are often available on the internet (see, e.g. [3]). Citing these is a Good Thing. Also, re Brenneman: in my (relatively limited) experience in editing articles on works of fiction, it is often quite difficult to find secondary sources for simple matters of plot. In cases like these, it is unavoidable and (it seems to me) unproblematic to cite the original text. Mikker ^... 11:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Ohhhh... shiny. I'd be much happier with someone parsing text from the script than taking notes while watching the feature. The question then shifts onto is what's a reliable source for scripts, but I'd be satisfied with having that discussion elsewhere. - brenneman^{L} 04:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Suggested adjustment to policy

May I suggest that the policy be adjusted as follows, to prevent editors acting in bad faith from using WP:V as a tool of harassment: Any editor can mark a statement as needing verification. However, no one should remove a statement, not even one specifically marked as lacking verification, unless they are specifically asserting that they doubt the statement's truth.

The reason for this change is that too frequently, editors who are acting in bad faith try to employ the letter of policy while violating its spirit. They use the current letter of policy, which says "Any edit lacking a source may be removed", to remove anything unfavorable to their own POV, even if they themselves know it to be true. For instance, I have personally witnessed an editor removing from an article the fact that there actually exists a POV other than his own on the subject, and then claiming on the talk page that WP:V supports him, because "any edit lacking a source may be removed." If this change in policy were instituted, editors' time would be spent more effectively, sourcing the statements about which there actually may be legitimate doubt, rather than ones which may have gone unsourced for so long precisely because no one thought it necessary to source something so obvious to all. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:22, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe that can be handled as simple disruption. If most editors know it to be true, and another removes it for having no source, that is disruption. Warn them, and if needed they can be blocked from editing. Citation needed templates are great in theory except they make articles look bad and they rarely cause action. Removing uncited material causes editors to do research to back up the material. The end result is a better article, and that difference is why I think it is worth it. For general material that really doesn't need a citation, it should be covered by the article's general references, and again, removing something supported by the general references is disruptive too. - Taxman ^Talk 17:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I've been asking for over a year for just one example of an undisputed fact, something we all know to be true, that can't be sourced. No one has managed to come up with one. So I disagree with Taxman. While it might be irritating to have someone insist on a source for a point that is obviously correct, it's usually a lot faster to go find a source than to find an admin to block them for disruption. And if you can't find a source, maybe the other guy was right to question you. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you're confusing what I'm saying with what someone else said over a year ago. I never said these facts couldn't be sourced. What I'm saying is that the policy that any unsourced edit may be removed by any editor is being used by editors of bad faith to harass and waste the time of editors of good faith. I am merely suggesting that the policy would be less vulnerable to abuse if, in order to remove an edit for being unsourced, an editor actually had to commit himself to saying "I doubt that this edit could be legitimately sourced." If such a doubt is reasonable, then absolutely nothing is different from how policy operates currently. If such a doubt is unreasonable, then it becomes easier to demonstrate that the editor is being deliberately disruptive.

If you doubt that WP:V is being abused for purposes of harassment, then please look at this edit, where a practitioner of Scientology who has frequently lectured other editors about how personally effective he has found Dianetics techniques demands a source for the statement (among others) that "many practitioners of Scientology testify that they have found Dianetics techniques to be personally effective". -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

You are quite correct, Antaeus. This is rapidly becoming a common harrassment method. Certain editors just go around deleting unsourced claims they want to suppress, claiming "no source given" as an excuse. Their bad faith is clear from the fact that they never do it with text that they like. It is always OK to ask for a source, but this shoot first and ask questions later practice should be curtailed. --Zero^talk 12:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Assume good faith. Just how do you known that they never do it with text that they like? How do you know how they decide which unsourced claims to delete? If it appears from the pattern of a user's edits that the user is exhibiting a bias, discuss it with the editor first. If an editor is being disruptive, there are better ways of dealing with that editor than by weakening this policy. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 14:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I should have expanded more on "if need be". What I meant was for someone just removing all kinds of material, not in an effort to be helpful. In either case there should be sources found to support the material. But I suppose you're right that everything can be. - Taxman ^Talk 22:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

You're mistaken in thinking your idea would save time. It's incredibly time consuming for editors to find sources for claims made by other editors. Often, the best source is offline (or otherwise hard to find), and a fact checker has no idea where to look (because the original contributor gave no clues). However, it takes very little extra time for the original person adding the claim, to cite a source (and non-controversial claims can be covered by general references, without inline citations). A great side-effect of removing unsourced claims, is the editors adding them get into the habit including their sources of information in the future. That then saves everybody huge amounts of time. Adressing the issue of POV you brought up: one thing Wikipedia needs to abolish entirely, is editors writing about opinions without sources, usually with weasel words like "Some people feel such-and-such, but others feels the opposite" or "Some critics have said blah, blah, blah". Points of view, who's only "attribution" is that "somebody somewhere" said them, do not belong on Wikipedia, and should be removed. One reason for requiring sources for opinions, is we ensure those opinions are actually published opinions of identifiable persons, and not just the personal views of the Wikipedian writing them. --Rob 19:37, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Antaeus, that editor is correct to request a source for "many practitioners of Scientology testify that ..." beause it's weasel wording, as is "it has been criticized as pseudoscience and quackery by professionals and members of the medical community ..." in the same article. Who are these professionals (and what's a "professional"?); who are these members of the medical community? I'm sorry to disagree, but I'd also ask for sources. (I'm not a Scientologist, by the way). ;-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I side with SlimVirgin on this one: all your problems would go away as soon as you cite a reputable source. Mikker ^... 11:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

In any case, there is always a risk that any policy will be applied in bad faith. But part of the nature of "bad faith" is that such a problem can't easily be remedied by wordsmithing the policy—certainly not by weakening it in a major way.

I mean, it would make just about as much sense to add a rule saying "This policy is not to be applied in bad faith." Dpbsmith (talk) 15:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I guess I don't see how the policy would be 'weakened in a major way'. Are there really large number of editors out there who would rather remove information that they do not question the truth of from articles rather than mark that information as needing citation? And why? I mean, technically I could go to George Washington right now and remove the first three paragraphs, because statements such as "Washington first served as an officer during the French and Indian War and as a leader of colonial militia supporting the British Empire" and "After leading the American victory in the Revolutionary War, he refused to lead a military regime, though encouraged by some of his peers to do so" are uncited. Obviously, it would be a violation of WP:POINT for me to do so, but the only thing anyone's said which at all indicates that it would be prohibited (or even undesirable!) for an editor to make such a removal is Taxman's statement that "general material" should be "covered by the general references", and I question why, if someone is already inclined to try and remove material that they do not think is untrue, they would choose to believe that that material is "covered by the general references" when nothing specifically indicates that to be the case. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

This policy says "Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed". The example you gave in George Washington is of *sourced* material (even though general sources), so somebody couldn't possibly use this policy to endorse removal. If you think people are purposely misreading/misapplying this policy, and ignoring its clear wording, then no wording would solve that problem. But, if people think it's not already obvious, we could add wording to make clear that general references are very often sufficient, and the "generality" of a reference doesn't justify summary removal of unconsted individual facts. Although, I think Dianetics is definately something that needs lots of individual citations, for pretty much every claim, unlike George Washington. --Rob 04:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

If material in a lead section is simply an uncontroversial summary or interpretation of material that appears later in the article, and it is properly sourced in the later appearance, I don't see a problem. And yes, if someone, acting in good faith tags a piece of obviously, well-known, common knowledge with a "citation needed" tag, the proper response is for the people who want the item to remain to supply a source, which doesn't take long if the item really is that well known. Of course material shouldn't be deleted rapidly for lack of a source. My own procedure is to tag it, wait a while, in particular wait until I can find time to see if I can find a source easily and instantly. If I can't, I don't just delete it--I copy it, delete it with an edit comment, and paste it onto the Talk page.

The proper threshold for requesting a citation is "I wonder where that came from." That is quite different from "I suspect this is false." Dpbsmith (talk) 11:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I have also seen material in articles that did not agree with the source I was looking at. I requested a citation, and when I looked at the source supplied, found that it and the source I originally looked at disagreed. We need to remember that secondary/tertiary sources may offer different selections and interpretations of material in primary sources. So, even if you know something is wrong, or you have a reliable source that contradicts what is in the article, ask for a citation first, as the questioned material might be supported by a reliable source. This works the other way, as well. Even if you know that the material is correct and/or common knowledge, provide a source, because there may be sources you are not aware of that contradict all or part of the material. -- Donald Albury⁽Talk) 12:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Press Releases and Unverifiable Claims

Even the most reliable media outlets sometimes reprint press releases uncritically. Where such instances can be identified, it is reasonable to consider that specific article as critically as one would consider the original press release if self-published. The cross-checking and evaluation of sources is a proper function for a Wikipedia editor and should not be confused with original research.

It is common for people in the public eye to make self-serving claims that cannot be independently checked. Examples include having performed secret work for the government or having been nominated for the Nobel or other prizes the nominations and deliberations for which are supposed to be secret. There is a consensus among Wikipedians that such claims should not be included even if reported by media outlets, unless the media outlet indicates clearly that the source of the claim is their own confidential sources, rather than the subject of the claim or his supporters, or unless the claim has caused controversy, in which case verifiable information about the controversy should be included.

• I propose this section for inclusion under Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources, in response to a discussion on the Village Pump. The wording is my attempt to make the principle as general as possible. I welcome comments. Robert A.West (Talk) 05:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Robert, there is no consensus that certain types of claims should not be included even if reported by reliable sources. Quite the opposite. We publish what reliable sources publish. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:53, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

When I posed this question on the Village Pump, I got the opposite reaction, at least in the special case of Nobel Prize nomination claims, which are usually spurious and all-too-rarely fact checked before printing. This form of resume-padding seems to be growing in popularity, sometimes done by well-meaning supportes of the person. This leaves us with the unhappy choice of omitting either the (technically verifiable) claim or the (substantively verifiable) refutation, or including both and giving undue weight to a matter that may be peripheral.

More generally, are we compelled to parrot the demonstrable factual errors of normally-reliable sources? Must we consider a normally-reliable source reliable in a particular instance if other sources show to a reasonable certainty that the report was in error, and there is no real purpose to recounting and explaining the discrepancy? Unfortunately, as several recent cases have shown, the fact-checking budgets of major media outlets have been cut, resulting in their giving their imprimature to dubious claims that, thirty years ago, they probably would never have printed or broadcast. If you are ruling this question out of bounds, or so rare that it is not worth the instruction creep even if valid, so be it -- the issue often goes also to NPOV and undue weight, but I felt I should raise it here. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

In your example about Nobel price nomination, you could for NPOV, write something along the lines of "source ABC claims that XYZ was nominated for the Nobel prize, although these claims are unverifiable as the Nobel prize committee deliberations and nominations are not publicly available." As for your comment about making value judgments about the fact-checking (or lack of it) performed by a reputable source, I am afraid that this would be not possible as it implies a value judgement made by editors, based on perceptions that are in themselves not verifiable. I would argue that the policy as it stands, together with WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, already provides a solid foundation to address the concerns you raised. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:48, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

In the proposed section, I don't think any such "consensus" exists. And I don't see this differing from any other neutrality issue. I think it's perfectly OK to include material from a press release, for example. The important things are: it must be cited; it must be made obvious to the reader that it's a press release emanating from a probably non-neutral source; if it seems like a questionable claim, it should be reported in the article with a qualifying phrase like "the company claims" or "a corporate press release says" or "a company spokesperson says." If the claim is dodgy, it is much more valuable to balance it with well-sourced, reputable counter-claims than to remove it. As always, editorial judgement is required in deciding whether opinions are important enough, or sufficiently widespread, to be worth including.

Company press releases and other propaganda are excellent sources to site in reference to the company's corporate opinions. Which is better:

• not to mention any sexuality aspect of Hooters restaurants
• say "It is generally perceived that Hooters restaurants have a strong element of female sex appeal,"
• say "Hooters itself believes that that the element of female sex appeal is prevalent in the restaurants[[4]"

Would you suggest that the third one be ruled out as coming (as it does) from a clearly biassed and self-serving source? Of course, if some other source claims that the Hooters girls are unattractive, that should be mentioned as well. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Sex appeal is clearly a significant aspect of Hooters, so it should be mentioned, with sources to back it up. "It is generally perceived" is a generalization; a more concrete phrasing, with sources, should be used. The third one should be used, but with "The company states in its About page (link the page) that..." Don't ascribe feelings or beliefs. Coyoty 19:53, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your consideration and comments. Some of the above is, I think, based on a misreading of what I meant, but that is of itself evidence that my proposal was ill-conceived, at least for this page. I still believe that there is a provable difference between the amount of fact-checking done by the Times for leading articles at one extreme and by the local paper for routine obituaries at the other, and a range in between. If this is alluded to on any WP policy or guidelines page, I have missed it. But, let me go and do my homework and try to write up my case in more detail and with citations and present it in a more appropriate and widely-read forum, such as Village Pump or RfC. That is likely to take me a while. Again, thank you for your time and your helpful remarks. Robert A.West (Talk) 21:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Etiquette question

Clearly, it's bad form to include unsourced and uncorroborated rumors in a Wikipedia article. Is this also the policy concerning discussion pages? Or is gossip, speculation and innuendo allowable on an article's talk page? Anlala 05:38:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

It's allowed Anlala, but discouraged, unless it's for the purpose of deciding whether to include the material in the article. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Verifiable statement vs non-verifiable statements

An editor cannot provide ANY verifiable sources for their position, yet I can provide several for mine. What's the recourse to get this resolved? I keep getting responses that this is a "content disputed" when it's a Wiki policy dispute. --Iantresman 23:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I would point to the policy that reads:

1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources.

2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor.

3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

If the editor does not provide a source within a reasonable amount of time, you can delete the material. If the editor insist in reverting the deletion, I would consider that disruptive behavior. You can then place a request at the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:10, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

While it is certainly not editor B's responsibility to find the source for editor A's assertion, would it do any harm to commend it (time permitting) as a form of Wikipedia:writing for the enemy? I, at any rate, have learned much by finding sources (or better sources) for material put in by other editors with whom I disagreed. Robert A.West (Talk) 21:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

From memory, I think WP:RS does suggest that, but this page is policy i.e. it is mandatory, so we shouldn't suggest it here. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I looked at WP:RS and I don't see the suggestion, but I apprehend your point about this page being Policy (perhaps even the Mother of all Policies?). I think I will propose something on the WP:RS talk page. Robert A.West (Talk) 21:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Attempt to bypass WP:V and WP:NOR

A discussion at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Archival materials is attempting to make an exception to WP:V and WP:NOR for material held in an institutional archive. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 01:49, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

As I said on your talk page, I was in fact doing nothing of the sort. First off, RFC has absolutely no power currently to change anything, I was merely trying to get some community thoughts, so the suggestion that it is an attempt to bypass these pages is insulting to me (please see WP:CIVIL). Second, I already did note the discussion on the policy talk page, I simply did it on WP:RS because that was the policy discussed in the RFA that spawned the discussion in the first place. Please do not assume something sinister from a simple discussion in the future. I would also ask that any and all readers of this talk page contribute however they see fit to the public discussion as it is just that. Staxringold 02:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

This policy is incomplete and should probably be withdrawn until reformulated

Who writes these policies? Are they always subject to a vote?... The need for a policy such as this one is clear, and yet the expression of the policy's requirements is srikingly inadequate, leaving many holes when one tries to apply it to real encyclopedia writing. Take the case of a rumor. Now, Wikipedia has decided to be such an all-inclusive compendium that even topics like the private lives of celebrities have articles or sections of articles devoted to them. In these areas, writers perforce are dealing with rumor rather than with established, published fact. So, is a Wikipedia writer to note that a large number of people believe rumor X? A rumor by nature is not verified. And yet, that many people believe a rumor can be a fact, not a rumor. Is this suitable material for Wikipedia under this policy? You wouldn't know by reading the policy... I would suggest that policies not be formally adopted until they have been formulated to a much greater comprehensiveness than we typically see. JDG 18:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's OK then, as none of our policies are formally adopted. Some of them, such as this one, have "wide acceptance among editors", to quote the {{policy}} tag, and the general idea of some of them were created by the founders of Wikipedia, and are generally regarded as being quite central to what makes Wikipedia what it is (and what it is not), but none of them are formally adopted. We don't do much formally, here.

As for your specific question, about rumors - My general view on that is that a specific mention of a rumor can be a fact - "On this date, in this newspaper, the following rumor was repeated", and, if the newspaper is notable and it's encyclopedic for us to report what rumors it has spread, we can report this. We can't report the rumor without citing who and where it has been repeated, in a reliable source. You seem to be confusing verifiability of the facts of a claim with verifiability that the claim has been made. JesseW, the juggling janitor 19:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

WP:ARCHIVES

Following a discussion in a FAC then an RFC the following proposal has been organized. Obviously if you have an alternative proposal, please voice it, and vote no matter what if you have an opinion. Basically the proposal includes 3 slight alterations to allow archives to be used as source on Wikipedia provided that additional information is included in the citation to prove the archives existence, public accessibility, and reliability. Staxringold 00:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Self-published sources in articles about themselves

"A Wikipedia article about an unreliable newspaper should not — on the grounds of needing to give examples of their published stories — repeat any claims the newspaper has made about third parties, unless the stories have been repeated by credible third-party sources."

I'm not sure I understand the above. It seems to say that using X, one could not say that X claims Y about third party Z. What is the reason for that? Is it that X is not a reliable source for Y, or is it that Y is not important to the article unless others have also reported that X claims Y? Шизомби 01:57, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

It means that if the Weekly World News, for example, claims that Lindsay Lohan is dating Bat Boy, it should not be sourced unless the New York Times has also sourced it. The assumption is that NYT has fact-checked the story before publishing it, which cannot be assumed of WWN. Coyoty 16:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

What it seems to say is that an article about the WWN could not say that the WWN claims LL is dating BB unless the NYT also reports that the WWN claimed LL is dating BB. That's what I think doesn't make sense. It would make sense for an article about LL or BB not to say that the one actually is dating the other on the basis of the WWN claiming it. Шизомби 17:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Explicitly say Wikipedia articles cannot serve as references for other articles

I'd like to see some explicit language that says something like this:

1) a link to another Wikipedia article is never an adequate reference for a fact;

2) it is certainly not adequate if the linked article does not include a reference for the fact;

3) if the linked article does include a reference for the specific fact of interest, that reference should always be copied into the article that links to it.

What set me off about this is List of people known as father or mother of something, which currently lacks any references whatsoever. It glibly says "Sources for or references to each person being a father or mother of something should be found in the article to which their name is linked." Well, no doubt they should, but are they? Let's check the first three.

The Philip Abelson article indeed says "Dr. Abelson is known as the 'Father of the Nuclear Submarine'." Alas, this is a circular reference—to the List of people known as father or mother of something. The words "father of" appear nowhere else in the article.

The Abraham article says, "Jews and Christians consider him father of the people of Israel through his son Isaac; Muslims regard him as the father of the Arabs through his son Ishmael." It gives a reference to Josephus calling Ishmael the "father of the Arab nation." Nowhere does the article say that Abraham is called the "father of monotheism," which is the "fact" that appears on the list.

Nikolaj Abraham Abildgaard says "Eckersberg, as professor at the same Academy went on to lay the foundation for the period of art known as the Golden Age of Danish Painting, and is referred to as the 'Father of Danish painting'". This is another circular reference, and again there is no other indication that he is called the "father of" anything.

I could go on and on, but this is just one example of something I've seen any number of times. I think it needs to be stressed explicitly that a Wikipedia article can not be a source for a fact in another article, for four reasons:

• First, names will usually be linked if an article exists, completely independently of whether the article confirms the claims in the other article. Just because Chris Berman is listed as under "notable alumni" of WBRU, it does not follow that the Chris Berman article will necessarily so much as mention WBRU.

• Second, a fact that is important to one article may be relatively unimportant in the article it links to. Frequently the linked article may mention something in passing without giving a reference.

• Third, articles change over time. Even if a fact was once referenced in an article, regrettably experience shows that that may not be the case six months later.

• Fourth, if, in fact, the referenced article actually does give a reference for the item of interest, it takes less than thirty seconds to copy and paste the reference into the referring article, and it is hard for me to see any reason whatsoever why this should not always be done.

Dpbsmith (talk) 17:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

There might already be something that states your point about WP not using itself as a source for itself. I thought it might be Avoid Self Reference, but it wasn't in that one. Wikipedia:Abundance and redundancy touches upon your fourth point. Шизомби 17:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

"Note: Wikipedia articles can't be used as sources." Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Why_sources_should_be_cited Шизомби 19:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Would it be reasonable to mention this in WP:V and WP:RS too? (Is that an example of a rhetorical question?) Dpbsmith (talk) 20:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I think what you are proposing makes sense, but such a change would have little effect. We need to be able enforce existing policy before extending it. List of people known as father or mother of something seems to wantonly violate both existing W:V and WP:NPOV. If people are going to violate existing policy, they'll just ignore any new stricter version. -Rob 22:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Flaw

WP:V has a flaw. Wikipedia is not allowed to be the first source to report on a fact; we have to wait until some other source that is deemed a verification source has already reported on it. We should not have to wait until there is a single "good enough" source. Having some number of Google hits should be good enough to say "yes, this is verifiable", even if none of those hits are good enough on their own to merit verifiability. What that "some number of hits" should be may need to be left up to interpretation. (See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#The_Game_(game)_and_its_AFD.) - UtherSRG (talk) 14:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

No it doesn't. At least, not that one. How does a number of dodgey hits on Google make something verifiable? A number of unreliable sources do not add up to reliability. Rumors, bad information and deliberate disinformation spreads fairly rapidly on the Internet, and getting a bunch of hits on something that isn't true doesn't make it true. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 15:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

What's the purpose of verifiability? Is it "this data is verified, you can trust us, don't bother with the man behind the curtain", or is it to say "this data is verifiable, you can prove it yourself". I posit that it's the latter; we don't verify, we provide access to verification. Journalistic and academic write ups are certainly and will remain the dominant vehicle for verification, but any legitimate level of multi-source data should be a sufficient vehicle for the reader to judge whether the article provides the right information, or if the article needs to be editted or removed. If this were a paper-based or otherwise static encyclopedia, then using only the sources a paper-based and static encyclopedia normally uses would make sense. However, we're a collaborative, electronic, dynamic encyclopedia, we should be able to have a somewhat broader(?) verification scheme than a peper-based, static encyclopedia. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, somewhere between the two. The idea of Wikipedia is not for every reader to verify the information, but for our editors to verify the information and allow any reader to do so if he/she wants. A reader with a casual inquiry, or one who is looking for peripheral information (perhaps to help understand a term in a scholarly article) shouldn't have to go through the work of deciding for themselves -- they should be able to trust Wikipedia because by and large we do what we claim. That is the volunteer service that Wikipedia editors provide. A reader who is doing scholarship is a different matter, but even there we want to be a quality starting point and provide a quality bibliography. Robert A.West (Talk) 19:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

RS

Phil, your revert implied that RS allows non-published sources. [5] It doesn't that I'm aware of. Can you say what you had in mind? (And even if it did, this is the policy page, not RS.) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Published, in its most conventional sense, requires a dependency on paper that we do not have. Given that we are linking to RS as our explanation of what a reliable, published source is, we ought accurately describe its content in the link - which is not based on publication, but on, perhaps, accessability? That seems the more accurate term to me, at least. Phil Sandifer 19:06, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Phil, "published" simply means entered into the public domain. Wikipedia "publishes" articles: that they're on the Web makes no difference. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:09, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that's what we mean by it, but it's fairly misleading - as you can see on WP:AN right now, as people are citing WP:V as an argument against web-only sources. Phil Sandifer 19:19, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Phil, please don't change the core wording of this policy without a consensus here. This a core policy on Wikipedia, and it is not lightly changed. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 19:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh give me a break. The "don't change" means don't change the meaning - not don't remove words that are misleading people. Phil Sandifer 19:19, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think published is misleading, it's just inconvenient for some editors. We just went through an attempt to define archives as reliable sources becasue they are "accessible", even if they aren't "published". -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 19:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Which, I think, gets to a larger problem, which is that we are completely incoherent on the subject of sources - by the standards proposed in the archives debate, out of print academic books would be just as problematic. Phil Sandifer 19:35, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Just popping in with two cents here. On some of the articles I've edited, I've relied on out-of-print books that I personally own. For 19th century firearms (for example), most of the interesting documentation of their history happened years and years ago. Surely, nobody is proposing that an out-of-print is an unacceptable source? - O^O

An out-of-print book would still be in the public domain; it would just be harder to find than a book in print. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:09, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. My point is that the archives issue seems to me to be basically the same, unless I'm missing some facet of the issue. Phil Sandifer 21:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Out-of-print does not necessarily mean hard-to-find. Out-of-print books may be available in libraries, book storea, and for sale on-line. Even old books that are only available in university libraries are still much more accessible than archives that are available at only one place. Moreover, books from reputable publishers are more likely to be reliable than raw material from an archive. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 21:47, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Phil, the issue is not only public accessibility. I could put a few sheets of my own typed material in my front yard, post the title of my article and its location on my blog, and that would make it, strictly speaking, accessible and in the public domain. The second requirement for a source to be reliable is that there's some degree of pre-publication third-party scrutiny, some kind of fact-checking process and editorial oversight. Almost all publication processes have this, whether it's a large newspaper where everything is scrutinized by several editors before publication, or a small book publisher where one editor will glance through it to check for libel and obvious errors. With personal websites and posts to Usenet, there's nothing standing between the writer and the act of publication, just as there isn't on Wikipedia, which is one of the reasons we can't use Wikipedia as a source. We have to rely on the editorial processes of other publications when we cite them, because we don't have our own, and the same goes for posts to message boards. I can see what you're saying in the case of comics, but imagine what would happen to articles like Abortion and Israel, or about controversial living people, if we started allowing posts on message boards to be cited. Could you try to come up with a very tightly worded section that would allow more of what you want without opening dangerous loopholes? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

To some extent. But as I've said, when one teaches this in college, one spends a month or two on it - it doesn't collapse to single sentences well at all. Phil Sandifer 02:05, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Third party sourcing as a notability definition

Given that the page states Articles should rely on credible, third-party sources, would people care to look at Wikipedia:Notability/Proposal? I've attempted to build a guideline which will equate notability with credible, third party sourcing. Improvement attempts, discussion and comments welcome. Steve block The wikipedian meme 23:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Top-of-Page Notice

On April 22, SlimVirgin changed the 2nd sentence of the top-of-page notice from this :

Feel free to edit the page as needed, but please make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus before you make them.

to this:

Please make sure that any changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus before you make them.

Since I preferred to old version, I reverted it back. I'm posting this notice here (and on WP:NOR and WP:NPOV), because it seems like a better place to discuss it than the template page. Ragout 04:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Do articles require third party sources?

Okay. I'm currently in a silly edit war at UGOPlayer, and I should probably know better, but this issue is driving me nuts at the moment. The guidance here states "Articles should rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." To me, that means an article should have third party sources, and if none exist then there's no article. Granted, there are minor technicalities in that staement, but I'm of the opinion that the argument I'm being countered with isn't one of those. Now the person I'm arguing with is attempting to convince me that since the guidance states that "For example, the Stormfront website may be used as a source of information on itself in an article about Stormfront", this means that all we need is the foo website as a source to write an article on foo. If that's the consensus, great, I'll get to work on creating articles on my blog and all the others. If it isn't the case, can we please tighten this area up. I like to think I do add useful information, almost everything I write is well sourced, but I'm growing weary of this inane fight every day. Perhaps I'm losing the point somewhere, and I should focus my energies at the print edition. At least articles there would hopefully require better sourcing. Steve block The wikipedian meme 09:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I also keep running into the same attitude on other articles, where an article on a book (or film or whatever) is just a book report -- or worse, just a plot summary and some cultural references. When I complain that there are no secondary sources the response is that "the book is obviously notable" and "the source on the book is the book." It has always seemed obvious to me that, a primary source is proper if judiciously used in addition to secondary sources, and almost never otherwise. Am I wrong? Guidance would be appreciated. Robert A.West (Talk) 12:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

As said in most headers of policies, the main policies of Wikipedia work together and should not be applied individualy and in isolation of each other. For example, the fact that a fact is verifiable is not enough. It needs to be notable, it needs to be NPOV and not WP:NOR, etc. So, to write an article on foo, first question that should be asked is: Is foo notable?, then you should ask: Are there reputable sources that describe foo? etc. See also WP:N and WP:AUTO ≈ jossi ≈ t • @

In practice, many articles lack proper sources because they haven't been put in yet. But, if you're talking about whether a subject is verifiable (or, if you prefer, notable) enough to have an article, an absolute minimum requirement for inclusion is that the subject is discussed in reliable sources. Exactly how many are needed and exactly which sources are reliable is subject to discussion, of course. If this minimum requirement is not sufficiently clear, I'd support tweaking the policy a bit to make it more clear. Friday (talk) 15:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the confusion arises when a book or movie is unquestionably notable, but there is not a large corpus of critical discussion. (In many cases this is really FUTON bias, but that is a distinct question.) Many Wikipedians seem to feel that a plot summary, a list of related games and movies and some trivia make an article. These are not labeled stubs, but they are not NPOV, because they are essentially the editors' critical views, or lack thereof. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• Well, I'm in an edit war where this is germane, so I can't edit this, but if consensus is that an absolute minimum requirement for inclusion is that the subject is discussed in reliable sources, then that should be explicitly stated. Steve block The wikipedian meme 21:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• I for one would count that as what this policy already says. If you can take out anything that is not verifiable that leads to the conclusion that if a topic is not verifiable, there can't be an article on it/the material can't be included in an article. Now of course as previously discussed, you can't take that to the level of instantly removing large swaths of text, you have to point out the problem, request references, and only then remove (probably by copying the removed content to the talk page for later verification efforts) if no references are possible or are forthcoming. To the point Robert West brings up, that is unnaceptable as a violation of WP:V and WP:NOR, and there's a ton of it going on. Avoiding that is exactly what these policies are for. - Taxman ^Talk 22:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I propose to change "If an article topic has no reputable sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic." to "If an article topic has no reputable, reliable sources independent of the subject of the article, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic." Do I correctly relate consensus? Would this be a clearer statement? Robert A.West (Talk) 23:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)