Wikipedia:Deletion review
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Discussion about closes prior to closing: |
Deletion review (DRV) is for reviewing speedy deletions and outcomes of deletion discussions. This includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.
If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.
Purpose
Deletion review may be used:
- if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
- if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
- if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;
- if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or
- if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.
Deletion review should not be used:
- because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment (a page may be renominated after a reasonable timeframe);
- (This point formerly required first consulting the deleting admin if possible. As per this discussion an editor is not required to consult the closer of a deletion discussion (or the deleting admin for a speedy deletion) before starting a deletion review. However doing so is good practice, and can often save time and effort for all concerned. Notifying the closer is required.)
- to point out other pages that have or have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
- to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
- to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
- to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
- to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests);
- to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed);
- for uncontroversial undeletions, such as undeleting a very old article where substantial new sources have subsequently arisen. Use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. (If any editor objects to the undeletion, then it is considered controversial and this forum may be used.)
- to ask for permission to write a new version of a page which was deleted, unless it has been protected against creation. In general you don't need anyone's permission to recreate a deleted page, if your new version does not qualify for deletion then it will not be deleted.
Copyright violating, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content will not be restored.
Instructions
Before listing a review request, please:
- Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
- Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.
Steps to list a new deletion review
If your request is completely non-controversial (e.g., restoring an article deleted with a PROD, restoring an image deleted for lack of adequate licensing information, asking that the history be emailed to you, etc), please use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. |
1. |
{{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~ |
2. |
Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:
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3. |
For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach |
4. |
Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:
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Commenting in a deletion review
Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:
- Endorse the original closing decision; or
- Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
- List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
- Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
- Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
- Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.
Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:
- *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
- *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
- *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
- *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~
Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.
The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.
Temporary undeletion
Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}}
template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.
Closing reviews
A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.
If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:
- If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
- If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.
Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)
Speedy closes
- Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
- Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
- Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
- Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".
29 June 2024
This article- First female Formula 4 driver from Kerala India [1] [2], which was not proven in the deletion discussion of removing the article at the time, is now passed WP:GNG and WP:NMOTORSPORT, and the discussion at that time ended immediately, and now the woman who is the subject of this article has participated in many notable events as a formula. A female driver. This article should be moved back to the main space, and this request was communicated to a closed editor who participated in the discussion of its deletion. ~~ Spworld2 (talk) 11:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. There was a consensus to delete.Oppose undeletion. In the AfD it was said that there is false information about a living person (
full of wrong information
,full of lies
) and this was not contested in the AfD, and a page with such problems should not be undeleted. Interested editors can create the article.—Alalch E. 11:45, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
28 June 2024
Disidrose
Deleted as an WP:R3, despite being too old to be eligible under that criterion. As an WP:RFOR from a language without a clear connection to its target of Dyshidrosis its retention at RFD is highly questionable. Nonetheless it was marked as reviewed by an experienced editor and the community has made its desire to weigh in on redirects more than a few months old at RFD clear. Deleting admin is largely inactive and archived the request for undeletion without comment, as such I am beinging this here. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:95CE:1437:1591:A9E6 (talk) 02:36, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn. R3 specifically only applies to
recently created
redirects. This was deleted almost two years after creation. This can be sent to RFD if desired. Frank Anchor 12:50, 28 June 2024 (UTC) - Overturn. While the R3 itself isn't particularly egregious, I found the admin's conduct after the fact to be inappropriate. WP:ADMINACCT is a policy, and it lists, among other things, failure to communicate as improper admin conduct. This admin not only ignored a valid question/petition by a user, but then went on to archive that question away from his Talk page. If you are unable or unwilling to respond to legitimate questions and requests, then hang up the mop and step away from admin actions until you are ready to be accountable for your actions. Owen× ☎ 13:09, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and send to RFD if someone feels it's necessary. This was not a valid speedy. Star Mississippi 13:13, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn - Definitely not recent as required by R3. -- Whpq (talk) 13:40, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn. Incorrect application of R3. No biggie. Should have replied to the IP though.—Alalch E. 22:17, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- R3 is tediously out of date and should have been reformed years ago to split out foreign language redirects to their own criterion. The average lifecycle of those is: get created, get forgotten instantly, lurk around doing nothing for years on end, finally get slam-dunk deleted at RfD when somebody notices them. It's a colossal waste of everyone involved's time. WP:IAR is still a policy on this project, although most people seem to have forgotten that. Honestly, I do not care at all whether this redirect lives or dies. This is pure meaningless bureaucracy on the basis of a bad rule blindly applied. — Scott • talk 22:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds like many of the elements of WP:NEWCSD are met. We've gone through and tweaked or eliminated several in the past year or so, no reason to not do another... my only concern is whether this situation is frequent enough to be worth documenting as a new/revised CSD. Jclemens (talk) 04:58, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- It didn't get much traction when last discussed at WT:CSD, this past March. —Cryptic 05:19, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds like many of the elements of WP:NEWCSD are met. We've gone through and tweaked or eliminated several in the past year or so, no reason to not do another... my only concern is whether this situation is frequent enough to be worth documenting as a new/revised CSD. Jclemens (talk) 04:58, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
27 June 2024
1794 in Ukraine
Relist. While not harbouring strong feelings about the outcome of this AFD, I believe that it was contentious and therefore should not have been closed after three days by a non-admin. Though it was "withdrawn by nominator", there was no consensus yet, and per WP:WITHDRAWN: "While the nominator may withdraw their nomination at any time, if subsequent editors have suggested an outcome besides keep [...], the discussion should not be closed simply because the nominator wishes to withdraw it". Geschichte (talk) 07:18, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- I think there's a better argument that this should have been closed as withdrawn instead, so that you could immediately start a new afd without the old one having any weight. —Cryptic 08:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment As the editor who closed the discussion, the sole delete !vote was cast after the nominator withdrew, the discussion should have been closed earlier. Aydoh8 (talk | contribs) 10:31, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. No, it "should" not have been closed earlier. Although it "may" have been closed, it never hurts to get more input. The nominator saying "withdraw" is not an automatic end to a discussion. Geschichte (talk) 11:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn (to “Withdrawn”). WP:SLAP the AfD nominator for the inadequate nomination. Allow a fresh nomination of better quality. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:38, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse end result but this should have been closed as “withdrawn” or “procedural keep.” This is a valid withdrawal as there were no delete/ATD votes at the time the nominator withdrew. With the close being on procedural grounds, there is no prejudice against immediate re-nomination. Frank Anchor 12:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Relisting is acceptable as well per OwenX, Alalch E, and others' interpretation of WP:WITHDRAWN, which I consider to be reasonable, though an optional new AFD with a better nomination statement is my first preference. Frank Anchor 12:11, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and Relist - This was a bad non-admin close with both Keep and Delete votes and should have been allowed to run at least one week. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- This one's difficult because it was properly withdrawn before any delete !votes were posted and could have been closed as keep before then. I'll decline to bold any suggestion, but I think a new AfD is best. SportingFlyer T·C 18:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and relist. Once the final Delete was cast, the AfD can no longer be speedy-closed as withdrawn, especially by a non-admin. The fact that it could have been speedy-closed earlier doesn't matter. Owen× ☎ 20:29, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for this comment. It's important that everyone understands that when formal prerequisites for a "withdrawn" close are met, but the nominator does not close themselves as "withdrawn", the next editor who could do so can still make a comment supporting an outcome other than keeping, and if they do so, then the discussion can no longer be closed as "withdrawn". —Alalch E. 21:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- It depends on what subsequent means in this context. I've always taken it to mean that you can withdraw if someone has !voted delete, but it can't be closed as withdrawn. In this instance it should have been clear to the petitioner that this was a withdrawn AfD as opposed to someone who !votes and then the nom wishes to withdraw, and a new AfD started. SportingFlyer T·C 22:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Subsequent there means subsequent to the nomination. If subsequent to the deletion nomination there are, say, two keep !votes, the nominator can withdraw and close as "withdrawn", or, if the nominator does not do so and instead only leaves a comment that they withdraw, anyone else can close as "withdrawn", but they are not compelled to do so and, subsequent to the withdrawal comment, can add their !vote with any recommendation, and if that recommendation is anything other than keep, then no one can close as withdrawn anymore as the matter has become contentious again (just as it had been prior to the nominator's withdrawal), and the AfD proceeds as normal. So this AfD's outcome as "keep" can not be understood as a proper (speedy) keep from withdrawal, and the comments in this DRV suggesting that are wrong. I see that the closer has commented here saying:
As the editor who closed the discussion, the sole delete !vote was cast after the nominator withdrew, the discussion should have been closed earlier.
And that is wrong. There are no such shoulds. Closing as "keep" as if due to withdrawal under these circumstances was a substantial procedural error, compounded by the bad NAC, which is a procedural error in itself. So this was a very bad close. —Alalch E. 22:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)- You seem mighty confident that you're correct there. If someone has withdrawn their nomination without opposition, but maybe doesn't know they can self-close, it's potentially tendentious to vote !delete afterwards. SportingFlyer T·C 16:03, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Gotta WP:AGF. Where's the evidence, even hypothetically? —Alalch E. 22:06, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- You seem mighty confident that you're correct there. If someone has withdrawn their nomination without opposition, but maybe doesn't know they can self-close, it's potentially tendentious to vote !delete afterwards. SportingFlyer T·C 16:03, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Subsequent there means subsequent to the nomination. If subsequent to the deletion nomination there are, say, two keep !votes, the nominator can withdraw and close as "withdrawn", or, if the nominator does not do so and instead only leaves a comment that they withdraw, anyone else can close as "withdrawn", but they are not compelled to do so and, subsequent to the withdrawal comment, can add their !vote with any recommendation, and if that recommendation is anything other than keep, then no one can close as withdrawn anymore as the matter has become contentious again (just as it had been prior to the nominator's withdrawal), and the AfD proceeds as normal. So this AfD's outcome as "keep" can not be understood as a proper (speedy) keep from withdrawal, and the comments in this DRV suggesting that are wrong. I see that the closer has commented here saying:
- It depends on what subsequent means in this context. I've always taken it to mean that you can withdraw if someone has !voted delete, but it can't be closed as withdrawn. In this instance it should have been clear to the petitioner that this was a withdrawn AfD as opposed to someone who !votes and then the nom wishes to withdraw, and a new AfD started. SportingFlyer T·C 22:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for this comment. It's important that everyone understands that when formal prerequisites for a "withdrawn" close are met, but the nominator does not close themselves as "withdrawn", the next editor who could do so can still make a comment supporting an outcome other than keeping, and if they do so, then the discussion can no longer be closed as "withdrawn". —Alalch E. 21:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn bad non-admin close and relist.—Alalch E. 21:45, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and relist per OwenX, Alalch E. Jclemens (talk) 07:42, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and relist - Withdrawn nominations are closed when there are no outstanding delete !votes because they are viewed as non-contentious. The moment there is a delete !vote, then it is contentious and cannot be closed early. For those viewing this situation as a quirk of timing, consider the case of an AFD that is withdrawn and closed immediately, any editor coming across the article and thinking it should be deleted is free to nominate for deletion. End result is still an open AFD. -- Whpq (talk) 19:06, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Racism in North America
I'd like to request the reopening of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Racism in North America. All 4 commenters that supported delete mentioned that the topic isn't covered as a whole but rather individually by coutry (i.e. "no coverage of this subject as a whole", "Unable to find anything discussing this topic specifically", "This article should not exist unless sources can be found that specifically discuss racism in North America as a whole"). In my comment, among other things, I mentioned that Google Scholar has 867 hits for "racism in North America". Many, if not all of these sources deal with racism in North America as a whole and would be out of place inside each individual country's article. Here are a few: "Transnational Perspectives on the History of Racism in North America", "Imperialism and Settler Colonialism: Xenophobia and Racism in North America" (let's remember that California was Mexico a mere 200 years ago), "Racism and the mental health of East Asian diasporas in North America: a scoping review", and I could go on. The discussion was closed a few hours after I made my point and before anyone else had a chance to either counter it or to agree with it and review their positions. I feel a relist would have been more reasonable. Rkieferbaum (talk) 20:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Relist This seems like a blatant failure of the AfD process and is making me rethink my "no, AfD is fine" comment at the does AfD need review. The first source which comes up in my search was a scholarly article which clearly looked at racism in the continent as a whole, the article's clearly a valid summary article, and the only failure I can see is that those advocating for the article to be kept didn't demonstrate the available sources clearly enough, so we've lost an article on a notable topic that has been in a relatively stable state since 2008. Being an "unnecessary conflagration" isn't really a deletion rationale, either. This needs to be relisted so more sources such as [3] can be reviewed. SportingFlyer T·C 22:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Involved comment as nom - I was somewhat surprised by the close, and would not object to a relist. But comments like
we've lost an article on a notable topic
so badly miss the nomination argument that I must respond. None of the content was about "racism in North America" continent-wide, it was a series of vignettes about various countries in North America that were inferior to the per-country articles. The notable content is already included at other articles. It is about how to organize this information; the claim that "there are at least two scholarly articles that use this phrase" does not imply that we must organize this information in a specific way to maximize article-count. Walsh90210 (talk) 22:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC) - Endorse as a valid close. This Deletion Review asks the reviewers whether the close was a valid close, not whether it was the close that they would have done. Relist would have been valid, but not the only possible close. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Allow Review of Draft for originator to submit draft that would involve splitting out some material. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon: see, that's part of the problem. It wasn't a delete but a BLAR, so the history is still there. Reverting it and adding robust references that solve the "coverage of this subject as a whole" would be good editorial practice for all intents and purposes. But reverting a BLAR after consensus in AfD would certainly qualify as diruptive editing. So that's where we're at at this point: by ignoring an opinion that contradicted the central argument of those defending deletion, this closure keeps me from proceding with what, IMHO, would be good editorial practice even in the eyes of at least some of those who supported deletion (
"This article should not exist unless sources can be found that specifically discuss racism in North America as a whole"
). The one part that doesn't fit in all of this is the claim that there was consensus to close that AfD as it was. So here we are. Rkieferbaum (talk) 15:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon: see, that's part of the problem. It wasn't a delete but a BLAR, so the history is still there. Reverting it and adding robust references that solve the "coverage of this subject as a whole" would be good editorial practice for all intents and purposes. But reverting a BLAR after consensus in AfD would certainly qualify as diruptive editing. So that's where we're at at this point: by ignoring an opinion that contradicted the central argument of those defending deletion, this closure keeps me from proceding with what, IMHO, would be good editorial practice even in the eyes of at least some of those who supported deletion (
- Comment. It was a very bold close. It happens to match what my !vote would have been.
Unless overturned, and further discussion belongs at Talk:Racism by country. Do not authorise draftspace drafting from DRV, that is beyond the scope of DRV and is a bad thing. A fork to draftspace should NOT be allowed unless done by consensus established at Talk:Racism by country. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC) - Comment I fail to see how there was a problem with the nominated version that could not have been corrected through regular editing. Jclemens (talk) 07:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
25 June 2024
Category:Wesley L. McDonald Distinguished Statesman and Stateswoman of Aviation Award
- Category:Wesley L. McDonald Distinguished Statesman and Stateswoman of Aviation Award (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
WP:JUSTAPOLICY WP:JUSTA Nayyn (talk) 00:36, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse Well attended discussion (for a CfD), policy-based reasoning, only the appellant disagreed with the outcome. I don't see how that could have been closed any other way, and specifically endorse this as a valid NAC. I'm sorry the outcome wasn't the way you would have liked Nayyn. Jclemens (talk) 03:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - This was a valid close, and the most appropriate close. The argument that the appellant sort of gives is more applicable to this appeal than to the CFD. WP:JUSTAPOLICY or WP:JUSTA mean that an editor made a vague wave at a policy, but this is a vague wave at an essay on arguments to avoid. Also, this is not CFD round 2, but being one of the highest honors is not the same as being a defining characteristic. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - In the Arguments to Avoid in Deletion Discussions essay, it says:
. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)Also, while citing essays that summarize a position can be useful shorthand, citing an essay (like this one) just by one of its many shortcuts (e.g. WP:ILIKEIT or WP:IDONTLIKEIT), without further explanation, is similarly ill-advised, for the reasons explained above.
- Looks like a WP:1AM situation. — Qwerfjkltalk 17:04, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. WP:OCAWARD is the relevant guideline in this case. There was no need for the Delete !voters to add prose to what already was a coherent, if terse, argument. Owen× ☎ 20:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. WP:ATA is WP:JUSTANESSAY and many "arguments to avoid" according to this nice and optimistic essay are quite far from being discountable when understood in the context of a whole actual discussion. And that essay fails to provide nuance in that respect, generalizing certain typical forms of expression as "unconvincing", "infirm" etc. But DRV is not primarily concerned with whether the arguments were "convincing": The arguments are analyzed for what they truly are, not as how they are likely to convince and whether the comments that carry them have a satisfying form. An argument packaged in a comment that is not convincing can be identical to the argument contained in a comment that is convincing. DRV is a post-mortem. In this post-mortem, stronger literature is needed than an optimistic essay. These WP:JUSTAPOLICY comments must be accepted as contributive to a consensus. The comments invoke a relevant guideline and are okay. There was a consensus.—Alalch E. 22:40, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
24 June 2024
Heer Da Hero
The AFD I initiated was closed with a "keep" decision, but I've concerns. Some IPs (WP:LOUTSOCK) voted "keep" based on some WP:ROTM coverage, which I countered. And just before closure, @Libraa2019 voted "keep" without adequate time for source assessment., @Libraa has a history of throwing 'keep' votes based on ROTM coverage. If possible, reopening the AFD would allow me to assess the sources provided by @Libraa. I've always understood AFD closures to be based on policy, not vote counts alone, and this closure is demotivating. Fwiw, the page was also created and heavily edited by UPE sock farms. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 09:29, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse:
reopening the AFD would allow me to assess these sources properly
- how so? What prevents the appellant from doing this source assessment now? If the sources provide only ROTM coverage, what difference does it make whether they were provided by anon IPs or established editors? I don't understand the basis for this appeal.
- After being open for three weeks, the nomination failed to receive a single supporting !vote to delete. I don't see how relisting it for a fourth week will achieve anything beyond giving the appellant the opportunity to bludgeon that final Keep view. Even if all the Keep views are proven to have come from a single sock farm, this would still be closed as N/C. I'm okay with an early renomination. Owen× ☎ 10:56, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- OwenX, OK, I'll do a source assessment here related to coverage provided by @Libraa. This also raises a question. If, due to a lack of participation, an AFD receives a few "keep" votes, who cite some coverage that doesn't easily satisfy GNG, should the decision be based on the vote counts and not on the source assessment and/or counter arguments? — Saqib (talk I contribs) 11:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed source assessment. But again, what would you have us do with it? Even if none of those sources provides SIGCOV, what are we to do - relitigate the AfD? Overturn to N/C? I've closed several AfDs where you were the nom or a participant. It's clear that you have the best interests of the project in mind, but your style often comes across as unnecessarily confrontational. Your request to reopen this AfD, after it was relisted three times, strikes me as an attempt to have the last word in it, without any reasonable expectation of changing the practical outcome. I know being right is important to you, but using your time constructively is often more important. Maybe start a merger discussion (to 7th Sky Entertainment?), get other editors involved, and if no consensus is reached there, at least the next AfD for it might be better attended. Owen× ☎ 12:10, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- OwenX, In the past, I used to nominate AFD and then disengage, only to find them kept due to non-policy-based reasons that I didn't challenge at the time. So after returning from a wikibreak, I decided to engage in AFDs more actively, particularly when I feel that non-policy-based arguments or keep votes based on ROTM coverage would influence outcomes unfairly. My intention is to simply to ensure that decisions align closely with WP:N. And I want to clarify that I've been lately working to avoid being confrontational in my AFD interactions. Regarding the DRV, my main concern is highlighting the issue of how low participation can allow some IPs to rescue some pages so easily. That being said, if you feel this DRV was unnecessary, I'll leave it at that. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 12:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- I can acknowledge that you recently have, indeed, been more amenable to walking away from an AfD debate if it turns too acrimonious, and I commend you for that. But I can't recall cases where you were able to build consensus, or win over someone who disagreed with you. Suggesting a viable ATD is often a good way to sway things away from keeping a page that isn't independently notable. Very few pages actually violate policy to the point where they need to be deleted. I know you only strive to ensure decisions comply with WP:N, but I'm not sure you're always going about it the best way. I don't think it was wrong of you to bring this to DRV. The topic of anon IP participation in AfD is worth discussing. But I still think a merger discussion, or failing that, renomination in two months, per Frank Anchor, would be more fruitful in this case. Owen× ☎ 14:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- OwenX, Honestly, I also don't recall (maybe because I nominate too many pages for deletion) where I was able to build consensus, or win over someone who disagreed with me. But I think this might be an instance where an editor withdrew their keep vote after I countered it. Anyways, your comments were encouraging, and I appreciate that you acknowledged the topic of anonymous IP participation in AfD as worth discussing. I have no hard feelings about this page being kept, so this DRV can be closed now. No offense to @Doczilla: even though this comment was discouraging. I wasn't arguing with them; I was just providing counterarguments. P.S. I'm observing an AfD (where my !vote is neutral) where some editors are debating as if it's the end of the world. Cheers! — Saqib (talk I contribs) 15:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- re: "Honestly, I also don't recall (maybe because I nominate too many pages for deletion)"
- That might suggest one reason among many to not nominate so many pages. (Yeah, I split an infinitive.) AfDs need quality over quantity. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 23:57, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- But Doczilla, I don't nominate every page I dislike—only those that apparently fail to meet WP:N and there's nothing wrong with that. Right? By the way, since Liz advised me, I've definitely slowed down; you can see it in my AFD logs. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 08:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've kept thinking about this because I do appreciate your enthusiasm and I do want to help you be effective, so it occurs to me that this might be worth pointing out: Fewer editors have participated in AfD lately. We're having some discussions trying to figure out what might be done to help with that. In the meantime, though, the fact that fewer are participating means AfDs are getting relisted more often and more are closing as no consensus. It's about both the sheer number of noms (which you've addressed above) and the quality of those noms. Concentrating efforts on making a smaller number of stronger AfD nominations might (1) give editors clearer AfDs to discuss in the first place and (2) be less daunting to people who feel overwhelmed by the sheer number of AfDs listed. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 19:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- Point taken! I'll definitely slow down more if you think I should. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 07:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've kept thinking about this because I do appreciate your enthusiasm and I do want to help you be effective, so it occurs to me that this might be worth pointing out: Fewer editors have participated in AfD lately. We're having some discussions trying to figure out what might be done to help with that. In the meantime, though, the fact that fewer are participating means AfDs are getting relisted more often and more are closing as no consensus. It's about both the sheer number of noms (which you've addressed above) and the quality of those noms. Concentrating efforts on making a smaller number of stronger AfD nominations might (1) give editors clearer AfDs to discuss in the first place and (2) be less daunting to people who feel overwhelmed by the sheer number of AfDs listed. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 19:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- But Doczilla, I don't nominate every page I dislike—only those that apparently fail to meet WP:N and there's nothing wrong with that. Right? By the way, since Liz advised me, I've definitely slowed down; you can see it in my AFD logs. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 08:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- OwenX, Honestly, I also don't recall (maybe because I nominate too many pages for deletion) where I was able to build consensus, or win over someone who disagreed with me. But I think this might be an instance where an editor withdrew their keep vote after I countered it. Anyways, your comments were encouraging, and I appreciate that you acknowledged the topic of anonymous IP participation in AfD as worth discussing. I have no hard feelings about this page being kept, so this DRV can be closed now. No offense to @Doczilla: even though this comment was discouraging. I wasn't arguing with them; I was just providing counterarguments. P.S. I'm observing an AfD (where my !vote is neutral) where some editors are debating as if it's the end of the world. Cheers! — Saqib (talk I contribs) 15:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- I can acknowledge that you recently have, indeed, been more amenable to walking away from an AfD debate if it turns too acrimonious, and I commend you for that. But I can't recall cases where you were able to build consensus, or win over someone who disagreed with you. Suggesting a viable ATD is often a good way to sway things away from keeping a page that isn't independently notable. Very few pages actually violate policy to the point where they need to be deleted. I know you only strive to ensure decisions comply with WP:N, but I'm not sure you're always going about it the best way. I don't think it was wrong of you to bring this to DRV. The topic of anon IP participation in AfD is worth discussing. But I still think a merger discussion, or failing that, renomination in two months, per Frank Anchor, would be more fruitful in this case. Owen× ☎ 14:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- OwenX, In the past, I used to nominate AFD and then disengage, only to find them kept due to non-policy-based reasons that I didn't challenge at the time. So after returning from a wikibreak, I decided to engage in AFDs more actively, particularly when I feel that non-policy-based arguments or keep votes based on ROTM coverage would influence outcomes unfairly. My intention is to simply to ensure that decisions align closely with WP:N. And I want to clarify that I've been lately working to avoid being confrontational in my AFD interactions. Regarding the DRV, my main concern is highlighting the issue of how low participation can allow some IPs to rescue some pages so easily. That being said, if you feel this DRV was unnecessary, I'll leave it at that. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 12:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed source assessment. But again, what would you have us do with it? Even if none of those sources provides SIGCOV, what are we to do - relitigate the AfD? Overturn to N/C? I've closed several AfDs where you were the nom or a participant. It's clear that you have the best interests of the project in mind, but your style often comes across as unnecessarily confrontational. Your request to reopen this AfD, after it was relisted three times, strikes me as an attempt to have the last word in it, without any reasonable expectation of changing the practical outcome. I know being right is important to you, but using your time constructively is often more important. Maybe start a merger discussion (to 7th Sky Entertainment?), get other editors involved, and if no consensus is reached there, at least the next AfD for it might be better attended. Owen× ☎ 12:10, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- OwenX, OK, I'll do a source assessment here related to coverage provided by @Libraa. This also raises a question. If, due to a lack of participation, an AFD receives a few "keep" votes, who cite some coverage that doesn't easily satisfy GNG, should the decision be based on the vote counts and not on the source assessment and/or counter arguments? — Saqib (talk I contribs) 11:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Source assessment table:
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Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
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https://www.24newshd.tv/3-May-2023/nadia-khan-gets-crazy-as-mad-over-drama-serial-heer-da-hero | ~ 24News is an independent source- but this particular coverage is based on an interview | This coverage has no by-line, so the expertise of its author has not been established - clearly falls under WP:RSNOI | The source doesn't discuss the subject directly or even in detail | ✘ No |
https://tribune.com.pk/story/2407480/ramazan-binge-list-five-shows-to-keep-you-entertained-post-iftar | ~ Express Tribune is an independent source- but this particular coverage has no by-line, so CHURNALISM style and falls under WP:RSNOI | This coverage has no by-line, so the expertise of its author has not been established | WP:ROTM coverage which doesn't discuss the subject in detail as require by GNG | ✘ No |
https://dailytimes.com.pk/1079637/amar-thanks-the-audience-for-loving-the-alpha-hero-she-has-penned-in-her-serial-heer-da-hero/ | ~ Daily Times is an independent source- but this particular coverage has no by-line, so CHURNALISM style and falls under WP:RSNOI | This coverage has no by-line, so the expertise of its author has not been established | WP:ROTM coverage which doesn't discuss the subject in detail as require by GNG | ✘ No |
https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/30-Mar-2023/amar-khan-s-punglish-skills-in-heer-da-hero-impresses-fans | Daily Pakistan is an independent source- and coverage has a by-line | ~ CHURNALISM style coverage and falls under WP:RSNOI - Fwiw Daily Pakistan itself is not a RS | WP:ROTM coverage which doesn't discuss the subject in detail as require by GNG | ✘ No |
https://www.independenturdu.com/node/133401 | Independent Urdu is an independent source- and coverage has a by-line | The coverage was published in the blog section (بلاگ) of Independent Urdu and was done by a blogger (بلاگر) so the expertise of its author has not been established. | The coverage discuss the subject in detail | ✘ No |
https://jang.com.pk/news/1211032 | ~ Jang is an independent source- and coverage has a by-line but this particular coverage is based on an interview | ~ How coverage based on interview can be reliable? | WP:ROTM coverage which doesn't discuss the subject in detail as require by GNG | ✘ No |
https://www.aaj.tv/news/30323593 | ~ Aaj is an independent source- but this particular coverage has no by-line, so CHURNALISM style and falls under WP:RSNOI | This coverage has no by-line, so the expertise of its author has not been established | WP:TRIVIALMENTION | ✘ No |
https://lahorenews.tv/index.php/news/61302/ | ~ Lahore News is an independent source- but this particular coverage has no by-line, so CHURNALISM style and falls under WP:RSNOI | This coverage has no by-line, so the expertise of its author has not been established | WP:TRIVIALMENTION | ✘ No |
https://www.dawnnews.tv/news/1199328 | ~ Dawn is an independent source- but this particular coverage has no by-line, so CHURNALISM style and falls under WP:RSNOI | This coverage has no by-line, so the expertise of its author has not been established | WP:ROTM coverage which doesn't discuss the subject in detail as require by GNG | ✘ No |
https://www.easterneye.biz/amar-khan-being-her-own-hero/ | ~ Eastern Eye is an independent source- but this particular coverage is based on an interview | How coverage based on interview can be reliable? | Amar Khan - the actor of TV series themselves talked about the subject | ✘ No |
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}. |
- Endorse this AFD was listed for three weeks and received no additional support for deletion and a single redirect vote. The keep votes are weak, but there is no WP:QUORUM to delete. No consensus would have probably been a reasonable close as well. Echoing OwenX, I do not object to an early re-nomination (including the above source assessment) no less than two months after the closure of the AFD (as if it were closed as NC) or a merge discussion that can take place at any time after this DRV closes. Frank Anchor 13:13, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - A case can be made that the closer should have discounted the IP !votes, and the close should have been No Consensus. That would still leave the article in article space. Keep is also a valid closure, either before or after throwing out the IP votes. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:41, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon, Right. "NC" would had been a better outcome. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 15:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to no consensus which will allow for an earlier re-nomination - I know it is not a hard and fast rule there, but there really was no consensus to delete here. SportingFlyer T·C 21:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse, correct assessment of consensus, the consensus leaned toward keeping the page, and a NC close would not have really changed anything in practical terms. Side note, random IPs are often active in Pakistan-related AfDs and they often agree with nominator's arguments (recent examples [4], [5]), claiming in this case they are socks is a strong claim which would had needed strong evidence. Cavarrone 08:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- When they can't justify keeping a page, they typically vote for deletion/redirection/merge etc. Otherwise, they simply vote to keep. Now, for example, there's this UK-based IP range calling for a t/ban on me (also see this and this), yet they're also casting delete votes in my AFD nomination. Strange, isn't it? @OwenX, fyi! — Saqib (talk I contribs) 08:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Junaid Khan (actor) brought me here, @OwenX, i would like to clarify, i am voting keep in only AFD's which are initiated by Saqib & that too with proper source presentation as i feel he may be dislike articles and nominate them without proper WP:Before. He has a strict policy regarding Pakistani articles which i respect but has a soft corner regarding his creations [6] [7] he contineously drafting new Pakistani articles despite of them meeting notability criteria. A current example is [8], that article had 29 sources but he draftified with a reason "No Source". Other examples are Draft:Na Baligh Afraad & Draft:Umro Ayyar - A New Beginning, both are feature films which received significant coverage on google and i respect his decision therefore did'nt touched that articles neither am i interested in such articles but using them as an example. You can check my history, he nominated all of my creations too. Libraa2019 (talk) 15:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Libraa2019, Your Wikihounding won't cease, will it? — Saqib (talk I contribs) 16:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Saqib, Neither yours. May i ask how you reached here [9], and thankfully it was not my creation neither related to Pakistan otherwise it would have faced AFD as of now. You could have request deletion review without mentioning me but accused me of bogus votes & i am here to prove my point nothing else. Libraa2019 (talk) 16:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Libraa2019, Your Wikihounding won't cease, will it? — Saqib (talk I contribs) 16:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. Obviously. Read advice at WP:RENOM. Relisting is not a good idea. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. The nomination did not gain consensus after a rather long discussion period so the status quo of the article being retained is maintained, and DRV can not do anything about this. Relisting won't produce anything. It's much better to renominate in the future.—Alalch E. 23:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
23 June 2024
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Article on a Utah-based kidvid company, deleted back in early November 2017 for lack of WP:CORPDEPTH thanks to this AFD; an early July 2022 re-creation attempt was also shot down. After some 5–7 years, looks like WP:Library may be coming to the rescue. (What follows below may be enough for now to meet WP:SIGCOV and WP:NORG/WP:NMEDIA—lest we look a bit harder beyond lots of natter on their telemarketing practices?)
XPosted from WP:Requests for undeletion/Archive 383#Feature Films for Families and User talk:Liz/Archive 47#Undeletion request: Feature Films for Families (both from February 2023). As an added bonus since our last appeal attempt, here's what AVID Logos has to say on their recent fate (with relevant WP links added):
From here, perhaps the S.S. Cunard (talk · contribs) may give us an extra hand this time around? Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 12:16, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
21 June 2024
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
https://www.webmd.com/sex/anal-sex-health-concerns https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324637 https://health.clevelandclinic.org/anal-sex-safety 202.134.11.238 (talk) 13:34, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
19 June 2024
Moruf Oseni (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page was deleted under the G11 and A7 criteria. There was no communication before the deletion. The subject is the CEO of a top Bank in Nigeria (Wema Bank) and so qualifies to have a Wiki page. He is notable enough. I would like to be able to edit the article in a draft space to fix the G11 issue before seeking approval to move to mainspace Michael Ugbodu (talk) 04:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
18 June 2024
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Hello, I noticed that deletion of this article was closed with no consensus. This is very surprising to me. I have spent three days to investigate it and came to conclusion that it was a hoax. Moreover, the statement in its first paragraph is completely wrong. Please reconsider your decision or provide reason(s) for keeping that article which is full of false statements. HeritageGuardian (talk) 22:10, 18 June 2024 (UTC) — HeritageGuardian (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
17 June 2024
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Read this as 2024, didn't realise this was a ten year old XfD! Qcne (talk) 15:38, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
6 June 2024
Category:Dominican Republic people of European American descent
- Category:Dominican Republic people of European American descent (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
That category was being used for Dominicans descended from United States citizens of European descent, aka White Americans (minus Middle Easterners), it wasn't used for "White Dominicans" as claimed by the deletion nominator. Even, there is still a separate category for Dominicans descended from African Americans, aka Black Americans (Category:Dominican Republic people of African American descent) as anyone can see it in the parent category Dominican Republic people of American descent since that parent category was subcategorized into different recognized American ethnic groups. This category was deleted based on a misunderstanding, maybe it just needed some clarification in the cat page. ★ Iñaki ★ (Talk page) ★ 02:21, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- (as participant to the discussion) It does not look like a misunderstanding. I noted in the discussion that articles are already in e.g. Category:Dominican Republic people of French descent when it is about someone with French (i.e. European) ancestors. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:14, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle what do you think about overturning this CfD and you nominating with the correct rationale, as only you made a relevant comment supporting deletion. Others simply did not get the facts right, so the DRV nominator is right that there was, predominantly, a misunderstanding. —Alalch E. 09:57, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Why are you discounting my comment so readily? SportingFlyer T·C 05:52, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I legitimately can not see how you made a
relevant comment supporting deletion
in the absence of an intelligible rationale coming from you and in the context of the erroneous nomination.—Alalch E. 12:00, 7 June 2024 (UTC)- There was nothing erroneous about the nomination as far as I can tell, and any good closer in the category space would understand I'm supporting the arguments which have been made before me. SportingFlyer T·C 17:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- Arguments were made about how the nomination was erroneous in this deletion review already prior to this thread, which arguments were then followed up by more arguments how it was erroneous (at this time: the DRV nominator's statement, my 09:55, 6 June comment, Extraordinary Writ's 19:27, 7 June comment). Marcocapelle clarified his !vote here distinguishing it from the erroneous nomination so that his comment can be understood not to rest on the nominator's objectively incorrect assertions, but you haven't distinguished your comment from the erroneous nomination, and as you, in your !vote, made a reference to White Dominicans, which is a reference to the nominator's incorrect assertions, and there's no other intelligible rationale contained in your comment, your comment can not be seen separately from the erroneous rationale. So, as I said, you
did not get the facts right
. It doesn't mean that this was a good category, but it means that it wasn't a good CfD. —Alalch E. 12:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Arguments were made about how the nomination was erroneous in this deletion review already prior to this thread, which arguments were then followed up by more arguments how it was erroneous (at this time: the DRV nominator's statement, my 09:55, 6 June comment, Extraordinary Writ's 19:27, 7 June comment). Marcocapelle clarified his !vote here distinguishing it from the erroneous nomination so that his comment can be understood not to rest on the nominator's objectively incorrect assertions, but you haven't distinguished your comment from the erroneous nomination, and as you, in your !vote, made a reference to White Dominicans, which is a reference to the nominator's incorrect assertions, and there's no other intelligible rationale contained in your comment, your comment can not be seen separately from the erroneous rationale. So, as I said, you
- There was nothing erroneous about the nomination as far as I can tell, and any good closer in the category space would understand I'm supporting the arguments which have been made before me. SportingFlyer T·C 17:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I legitimately can not see how you made a
- Why are you discounting my comment so readily? SportingFlyer T·C 05:52, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle what do you think about overturning this CfD and you nominating with the correct rationale, as only you made a relevant comment supporting deletion. Others simply did not get the facts right, so the DRV nominator is right that there was, predominantly, a misunderstanding. —Alalch E. 09:57, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn. The nomination was clearly and objectively erroneous and the comments followed this erroneous reasoning, with the exception of Marcocapelle's comment, but that is only one !vote."European American descent" part in the category name clearly refers to European Americans, citizens of the United States of European descent, to this is a category for articles about Dominicans with ancestry in the U.S. for whom their American ancestors are of European descent, i.e. European Americans. So when the nominator said
it seems that this is not intended for Dominicans with ancestry in the U.S.
this was absolutely incorrect.In spite of this, Marcocapelle reasons that we should not have such a category and that the two layers of descent should be compressed into one, so if someone is Dominican with French American descent, the category should be Category:Dominican Republic people of French descent. This is a fine opinion to have, but consensus did not form around this view, as all of the remaining participation revolved around the erroneous rationale. So there was no consensus to delete. My suggestion would be to renominate with a valid rationale.—Alalch E. 09:55, 6 June 2024 (UTC)- I'm fine with relisting too, but starting a new discussion with a new nomination would be better. —Alalch E. 23:35, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- These were the articles in the category at the time of deletion. I think Alalch is right that
Looking at the content of this category, it seems that this is not intended for Dominicans with ancestry in the U.S.
simply wasn't correct: the people in question did have white ancestors in the U.S., which is why they were added to the category. The real question is whether 1) residents of the Dominican Republic 2) whose ancestors are of European descent and 3) whose ancestors resided in the U.S. is one intersection too far, as Marcocapelle suggested. I suspect the answer is yes, but the CfD didn't really get into that, and since we have a good-faith request I'd probably just relist for further discussion. (Whatever arguments apply to this category probably also apply to the African-American category mentioned above.) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:27, 7 June 2024 (UTC) - I'm in the same space as Extraordinary Writ. Relist to get a proper consensus, which I would hope will give weight to the overcategorization argument. Stifle (talk) 07:56, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- Get rid of it and all similar categories Why should Wikipedia categorize people based on their ancestry? We don't know the ancestry of 99% of BLP subjects. For example, Category:Dominican Republic people of African American descent contains Max Puig who is also in the category Category:Dominican Republic people of Italian descent. But he is also in Dominican Republic people of Catalan descent, Dominican Republic people of Haitian descent, People of Ligurian descent, Dominican Republic people of Dutch descent and Dominican Republic people of Turks and Caicos Islands descent... Who gives a shit? We should remove this information about non-notable people. Do we really want to list everyone's ancestry for thousands of generations until everyone is from Africa? This obsession is unhealthy and insane. We have no reliable sources that give detailed information on the ancestry of anyone alive today, unless perhaps if you are a Habsburger or similar (and even in that case we only know a fragment). It is weird and potentially offensive to label people incorrectly based on flimsy evidence, notoriously unreliable amateur genealogical research and looks. Why do we not require sources for categorization? Just categorize people on their nationality/nationalities if there are reliable sources. Jimmy Wales has said of this: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced.". Polygnotus (talk) 11:21, 22 June 2024 (UTC)