Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
SlimVirgin (talk | contribs) →Result of the appeal by Signedzzz: + comment |
|||
Line 679: | Line 679: | ||
{{ping|My very best wishes}} OK, you don't think that [[WP:PROBATION]] is meaningful. Is it the purpose of an appeal at this page to second-guess site norms? This is not even the claim the appellant makes. He seems to be going for "I am not actually a disruptive editor" -- i.e. that there's been an error of fact. But nobody's buying that one. ''So why not propose a different sanction.'' Sanctions are supposed to be escalating for repeat violations. His last one was an indefinite TBAN he slithered out of. He's wasted a lot of community time since then, routinely disparaging other editors (not least yourself) and failing to engage in collaborative editing. Do you suggest we just wait for the next reunion to rehash the same behaviors next time? [[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 18:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
{{ping|My very best wishes}} OK, you don't think that [[WP:PROBATION]] is meaningful. Is it the purpose of an appeal at this page to second-guess site norms? This is not even the claim the appellant makes. He seems to be going for "I am not actually a disruptive editor" -- i.e. that there's been an error of fact. But nobody's buying that one. ''So why not propose a different sanction.'' Sanctions are supposed to be escalating for repeat violations. His last one was an indefinite TBAN he slithered out of. He's wasted a lot of community time since then, routinely disparaging other editors (not least yourself) and failing to engage in collaborative editing. Do you suggest we just wait for the next reunion to rehash the same behaviors next time? [[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 18:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
||
Some of the Admin comments don't appear to focus on the theory of this appeal or the powers of Admins in AE appeals. They read more like box seats at a command performance of ANI. TTAAC has not complained about the particular sanction that Coffee imposed. TTAAC has denied the violation. After all the trouble taken to refute this deflection, does any Admin still believe it's true? So we have an infraction, and in the case of this editor it's one of dozens that have been documented here over the course of the past +/- 16 months. Many of the editors who went to the trouble of providing diffs in those past cases, including the ones that resulted in sanctions, may well have concluded that there's no willingness to enforce DS, let alone escalating blocks, and so the editors with memory of all the bad behavior simply move on. I certainly am not going to waste a bright sunny day dredging up the history of this sad dysfunction and disruption. If you don't like the particular sanction, propose a more effective one. Which Admin is going to waste his or her time in the future exercising discretion when it's only a gateway to the Royal ANI here that AE has become? Otherwise, an AP3 Arbcom case will come sooner or later and what a regrettable outcome that will have been! [[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 18:08, 28 January 2018 (UTC) |
|||
===Statement by Steve Quinn=== |
===Statement by Steve Quinn=== |
Revision as of 18:08, 28 January 2018
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
|
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Greggens
Appeal declined. There is a general feeling among admins that the sanction was if anything too mild. Greggens is urged to be less combative in the sensitive areas of American politics and BLP, and to make more of an effort to listen to the concerns of other editors. Bishonen | talk 11:36, 21 January 2018 (UTC). |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by GreggensStatements that are crossed out have been withdrawn by the appellant I have always been a proponent of WP:BLP, adhering to its instructions as best as I possibly can. In fact, one of the things that I enjoy is, when I find something that is unsourced, I find a source to back it up and insert it into the appropriate article. As for my recent attempts at inserting a category or adding to a list, I misread the policy and thought I had all my ducks in a row each time. That's my bad. With respect to these edit attempts, even if there had been no sanctions imposed, I would not have restored the edit, anyway, since there was no consensus in favor of it (I believe that gaining consensus for restoring such reverted edits is one of the things that WP:BLP mentions, in WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE). To prevent future misunderstandings of WP:BLP, I'd be happy to talk with other admins about how to clarify the letter of the policy. In the meantime, I'll be more careful when exercising the liberties granted to editors, and I'll continue, as I always have, to follow the rules with respect to WP:BLP and also encourage others to do so as well.
I request that all sanctions be lifted immediately. Statement by NeilNGreggens is not new editor. In the past, their editing has almost exclusively focused on American highways, reality shows, and celebrities. This past week they've made edits to a variety of American Politics articles on controversial subjects, all problematic.
This prompted the one month AP topic ban. An editor who has been here since 2014 and with almost 3,500 edits should know better. If they don't, then they need to take the time to see what the community expects in this area. The six month Elizabeth Warren topic ban was prompted by NorthBySouthBaranof's evidence, specifically [1], [2], and [3] coming after discussion. --NeilN talk to me 04:54, 20 January 2018 (UTC) This filing at ANI also shows that despite being warned and notified, Greggens does not understand our BLP policy. "Eventually, NorthBySouthBaranof submitted a request for enforcement against me, anyway, but only after I had edited another page that wasn't a BLP (or recently-deceased person). It was merely a list article..." --NeilN talk to me 05:01, 20 January 2018 (UTC) I did look at Greggens' edits on other BLPs when developing the sanctions and they seemed for the most part gnome-work and uncontentious. Major expansions like this have minor sourcing issues at first glance but they are understandable. The Warren edits were unusual for this editor as the few major BLP edits Greggens has made are more like this. --NeilN talk to me 13:09, 20 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by NorthBySouthBaranofGreggens, you ignored those warnings by duplicating the objectionable edit on List of impostors. BLP applies to all content about living people anywhere in the encyclopedia. You cannot evade its requirements merely by moving a BLP-violating edit to some different page. This is why myself and other editors have urged you strongly to review our policies before editing in these areas — you clearly do not understand how our policies work. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:08, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Greggens
Result of the appeal by Greggens
|
Ihardlythinkso
Ihardlythinkso blocked for 1 week for violation of topic ban. MastCell Talk 05:54, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Ihardlythinkso
The purpose of the May diffs was to show that restraint was exercised by not reporting him for those violations, even those he displayed vulgar disdain for the explanations he was given. Dennis Brown I'm perplexed by your comment on several levels. I'm not aware that there are technical topic van violations and non-technical topic ban violations. Also, IHTS's comments in the AfD exhibit a profoundly-shallow, if not obtuse, understanding of what race is commonly understood to mean. When an editor starts referring to respected Journalists and fellow editors as ignorant and uneducated, the quality of the discussion goes right off a cliff. Given IHTS's colorful history of personal attacks, I think a week duration block is insufficient, but of course, that's not my department.- MrX 🖋 16:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning IhardlythinksoStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Ihardlythinkso
Statement by GalobtterSo I trawled through his edits and I found these two diffs in September among the thousands of minor chess edits - "was only "shocking" to Hillary supporters, was "delightful" to Trump supporters, so tell me this isn't typical liberal WP bias, duh!" and this on Dina Powell, the U.S. Deputy National Security Advisor for Strategy to President Donald Trump. I don't know how much relevance it has being months old; just thought I'd add here, being blatant violations (and showing a pattern of violations). There's also another edit to Shooting of Kathyrn Steinle here in July. (later addendum: probably not really a violation as not editing the part of the article related to politics, though toeing the line) There's four edits to the talk page of illegal immigration in the united states (marked as being under AP2 DS) in June. first diff (another addendum: not Those are essentially all the edits that could be violations of the t-ban since June. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC) I also don't know what Dennis Brown is on about - Ihardlythinkso's statements definitely added some hostility to the debate. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:22, 21 January 2018 (UTC) Regarding those edits to Talk:Illegal Immigration - incivility of I think for repeatedly violating t-ban (blatantly too) with incivility a longer block is necessitated Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:52, 21 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Ihardlythinkso
|
Doncram
Doncram is formally warned to focus on himself and the contributions he can make on the site, casting aspersions or antagonizing other editors in any form will not be tolerated. There is no further action required at this time. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:17, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Doncram
In response to the announcement about the suspension of the Doncram case's interaction ban, Doncram promptly proceeded to attack the other party in the ban, as well attacking the same party in the discussion about case names versus numbers. When I left a note saying "this is precisely the kind of behavior prohibited in the announcement", he proceeded to attack me. Note the complete lack of evidence: you can't get a better example of WP:WIAPA point #1, Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. We routinely issue first-time blocks to editors who make this kind of attack, but Doncram's been significantly sanctioned for this precise kind of behavior in a past arbitration case, but he's still bringing up issues from five years ago to attack multiple editors. After this long, it's obvious that he'll not decide to comply with NPA. It's time to lock the door and throw away the key.
Discussion concerning DoncramStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DoncramStatement by MendalivHonestly I think part of this is post-litigation frustration, kind of like how blocked editors are sometimes given some leeway for sounding off in ways that would otherwise be sanctionable. Considering this is 100% Doncram, I am hopeful that the outcome here is just with respect to Doncram. Maybe a block, maybe a short one-way IBAN until Doncram calms, but not immediately reversing the Committee's decision to let the IBAN lapse. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 03:16, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by DHeywardThree points:
Statement by (username)Result concerning Doncram
|
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Avisnacks
Block reduced to 24 hours by enforcing administrator, Avisnacks is reminded of the importance of talk page discussion when editing controversial articles. Thryduulf (talk) 16:35, 23 January 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by AvisnacksIn my new post, I restructured the information (which is well-sourced and as yet unreverted) in order to integrate it organically into the content of the article. My original edit was reverted because I had created a new subsection called "Is Trump a racist?" which purportedly violated the SYNTH policy. I therefore remedied the issue by integrating the material (the material itself was never an issue because it was clearly notable, relevant, and well-sourced) within the preexisting article structure. Additionally, in my new edit, I only updated the article with some of the content from my original edit. If anything, the editing process worked the way it was supposed to with the two of us editors working in concert to achieve a better article. Regardless, I have certainly learned to be more careful with edits on pages that are subject to sanction. As an editor, I have always tried to ensure that my edits draw no independent conclusions, but rather summarize conclusions reached by multiple, reliable sources. I will continue to endeavor to do the same. Statement by CoffeeThis was a clear violation of the consensus required restriction; what's worse is that just hours before violating the restriction, they had been directly notified on their talkpage that DS applied in the area. The editnotice was clear as it could possibly be (and they were not editing on a mobile device, so they undoubtedly saw it): consensus is required before reinstating any challenged edit. The user even here states that they reinstated challenged material; I don't think they could have made it any clearer that they deliberately refused to follow the sanctions system in place. Therefore, I strictly oppose any lifting of this sanction. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 18:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by AvisnacksResult of the appeal by Avisnacks
|
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Anythingyouwant
Appeal declined. Topic ban extended back to its original duration of a month. Sandstein 21:00, 23 January 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by AnythingyouwantRequesting that sanction be lifted because the imposing administrator (User:Coffee) sanctioned me not for any edit I made, but rather for mere edit summary language that I used. That edit summary language was not unreasonable much less sanctionable. Coffee acknowledged at my user talk: "You are correct that I have no issue with the edits themselves, it is the connotation that the summaries carried with them."[13] A week-long topic ban for a connotation?
The net effect of the two edits was to move a new BLP section to another spot in the BLP. Please feel free to consider it as a single edit if you like, instead of two separate edits (I did it in two separate edits because it was easiest, selecting and cutting the whole section, saving, then going elsewhere in the BLP to paste). My edit summaries simply expressed my opinion that no one should put the material back in the original spot without consensus, because the discretionary sanctions for this BLP say "All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)." I felt that I was challenging the placement of this section by reverting it, given that, "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert."[14] User:Coffee disagreed that consensus would be needed to put the material back in the location from which I removed it, and I am more than happy to abide by Coffee's interpretation in the future (despite disagreeing with it), but I don't see why merely giving my honest opinion in an edit summary warrants a sanction. I am grateful, however, that Coffee reduced the sanction from a month to a week. Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:40, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
FOR THE RECORD, I just want to provide this link to various instances in which moving material in an article was deemed to be a "revert" of the prior arrangement. I fully intend to completely disregard those precedents in the future, and will feel free to rearrange material within articles as much as I want, given that people here in this AE proceeding think its preposterous to consider such a thing as a revert. Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:59, 23 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by CoffeeThe topic-ban was shortened by 3 weeks as I believed from my conversations with the editor that they actually understood how the edits they made were an attempt to game the page restrictions in effect. I can see now that was a fruitless choice, and that they in no way have changed from the mindset that got them banned. - Anythingyouwant is mischaracterizing the reason for his current topic ban as if I had only ever blocked him for making an edit summary. Let me state emphatically: This is not true; he was banned for making disruptive edits (which happened to contain misleading summaries, if not purposefully so, about the content of said edits). The page restrictions and the WP:ARBAP2 ruling allow for administrators to choose sanctions based on their discretion which the administrator finds will remove or deter disruption in all pages relating to post-1932 American politics. These sanctions are not limited to only the 1RR restriction nor the consensus required restriction, and in this case the offending edit fell under neither. The offending edits were the cause of a sanction because the editor was clearly attempting to game the page restrictions in effect by attempting to make a move of data (via two consecutive edits) be considered a challenge of the data (something only available via reversion), which no reasonable person could construe the edit to be, as it did not revert nor remove any data that had been added in any previous edit. Their choice of a misleading edit summary was only part of the evidence, it was not the entirety of it. Their ban notice states the following even:
Statement by MrXThis appeal should be declined. Anythingyouwant's edit appears to have been engineered to circumvent page editing restrictions while forcing his preferred edit over consensus. Several editors, including myself, believe this is but another example of Anythingyouwant attempting to WP:GAME the system. Coffee has already agreed to reduce the sanction out of what I assume is an abundance of good faith. It's pretty brazen to ask for it to be completely lifted.- MrX 🖋 00:09, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MelanieN(Disclosure: I am involved at that article, and was involved in this very issue, so I am speaking as a regular editor and not an admin.) I can’t believe Anythingyouwant is appealing Coffee’s generous reduction of the topic ban from a month to a week. Here’s the incident that triggered things: At the Donald Trump article, there was a discussion about moving the “Public profile” section to a different place in the article. Anything favored moving it. Two days into the discussion, with consensus not reached, Anything pulled what I described as a “cute trick”, a two-part move based on attempts to game the DS sanctions. First he deleted the “Public profile” section from the article, with the edit summary Per talk page discussion, I am going ahead and challenging the recent insertion of this material by reverting it. One minute later he reinserted the section into the position where he wanted it to go, with the edit summary Per talk page, inserting profile info lower in BLP. Feel free to revert this particular edit, but consensus would be needed (per DS) to insert it elsewhere in the BLP. The removal was obviously not a real challenge to the material, since he restored it to the article immediately. Based on his edit summaries, he apparently thought he could make his move irreversible, by claiming that no one else could restore material he had deleted - but HE could. SPECIFICO called it to Coffee’s attention. Coffee told him to self-revert both edits or face sanctions for gaming the AE restrictions.[17] Anything said he would revert the second edit but not the first.[18] Coffee then issued a one-month topic ban for “your refusal to understand the proper use of the page restrictions, and for a clear attempt to game them”.[19] Anything’s various conflicting explanations for what he was doing and what he intended can be seen on his talk page, along with his appeal to Coffee, who ultimately decided to “give him the benefit of the doubt” and reduce the topic ban to 1 week.[20] And here we are. MelanieN (talk) 01:21, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by DHeywardThis appears to be a misunderstanding. The wording on the template is that "edit" must be challenged by reversion. Coffee has interpreted that to mean content rather than placement. It appears that Anythingyouwant and Coffee have come to a mutual understanding and Coffee has given him the benefit of the doubt of their interpretations. That should mean lifting the sanction completely since understanding is what protects while leaving it shortened just punishes. A short sanction doesn't really serve the purpose if there is understanding by all parties. Really, all it does is provide "blood in the water" that attracts adversaries advocating punishment. If retained, I expect at least 1 AE request to appear here if Anythingyouwant edits anything as the criteria for complaining is extraordinarily low and unlike ANI, there is never a boomerang. --DHeyward (talk) 01:26, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by AwilleyHaving followed most of the events leading up to this via my normal talk page stalking, I find myself basically seconding what User:MelanieN said. "Cute trick" and "gaming" are good descriptions of invoking the do-not-restore discretionary sanctions in the section move. If the user didn't already have an extensive history of working with these sanctions (warning and reporting other editors, being warned and reported themselves, and being sanctioned on occasion) I would object that the topic ban was too harsh, but I don't think a week-long break from Donald Trump will hurt too much in this case. ~Awilley (talk) 06:07, 23 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by MastCellSequence of events:
To be clear, not only should the topic ban remain in force, but it should be extended to its original length of 1 month. The topic ban was reduced on the basis of false representations by Anythingyouwant; he told Coffee what he wanted to hear, but clearly didn't mean it, given the substance of this appeal. Moreover, there must be some sort of exponential irony at work here: Anythingyouwant is trying to game the system in an appeal over a sanction for gaming the system. He has a track record more than a decade long of this sort of behavior, documented all the way up to ArbCom, which I will rehash if anyone is serious about actually dealing with it in this venue. Failing that, at a minimum the original topic ban duration should be restored and no admin should extend any credibility to his promises of good behavior in the future, on the basis of his actions here. Disclosure: I am commenting here as an involved editor, rather than as an admin. While I have no editorial involvement in the dispute at hand, I have about 10 years' worth of negative experiences dealing with Anythingyouwant's consistent and well-documented efforts to bend and break Wikipedia policy in service of his personal agenda, so I'm not able to speak impartially in an administrative role where he is concerned. MastCell Talk 19:06, 23 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by SPECIFICOI endorse Sandstein's suggestion you consider reinstating the full month TBAN. 2 tries at getting this undone have only made more clear the underlying problem. Arbcom called for escalating sanctions with repeat infractions. This is at least #3 by my count. Anyone want to go through another one of these AE threads and appeals again soon? SPECIFICO talk 20:42, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by AnythingyouwantResult of the appeal by Anythingyouwant
|
Racassidy54
Racassidy54 is topic-banned from chlordane. Sandstein 09:24, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Racassidy54
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Discretionary_Sanctions Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms##Casting_aspersions
This is mostly an WP:SPA issue at chlordane, a pesticide. At first I thought this was just a newcomer issue, but it looks like the issues go beyond being able to talk an editor through Wikipedia processes. The direct DS related issues are the 1RR and casting aspersions issues in diffs above. Within that, this editor has been restoring non-MEDRS sources and MOS violations through edit warring while making an appeal to being an expert whenever editors try to show them the edit was not appropriate: They've also been casting aspersions towards editors that either bring up their COI or edits with comments like I'm not a fan of handing out topic-bans, especially to relatively new editors, but a narrow topic-ban on chlordane-related topics may be needed for this SPA given that they've been getting cautions for over a year about slowing down without stopping. I'd hope that would force them to learn the ropes in a non-COI area where they hopefully won't be so hot-headed like we've seen here. I'm open to other suggestions, but it doesn't look like the route of trying to explain things to this editor (especially how we ask WP:EXPERT editors to act) is working. This kind of confrontational attitude is whatwe've been trying to keep out of this DS topic. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Racassidy54Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Racassidy54Statement by (username)Result concerning Racassidy54
|
The Rambling Man
No action. GoldenRing (talk) 07:50, 25 January 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning The Rambling Man
I'm not sure if this rant against the behavior, competency and/or motivations of one or more arbitrators violates this remedy or is just seriously WP:POLEMIC, but it seems to serve no good purpose other than to spread FUD about ARBCOM without anything to back it up.
Discussion concerning The Rambling ManStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by The Rambling ManI'm glad this has been brought to the attention of Arbcom as a whole, the community deserves a response to the behaviour that I have described there. As for it coming under any active sanction of mine, not a chance. Another "problem" with interpreting the words of the sanction methinks. As for "fear, uncertainty and doubt", yes that's actually real now, just see Alex Shih's talkpage and Coffee's talkpage where it's made clear that Arbcom are discussing the behvaiours of at least one editor with no case or sanctions or proceedings to necessitate it. That, folks, is requirement creep. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:57, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by MendalivI encourage no action here. It's a legitimate complaint about the Committee. Though I don't agree with the complaint, legitimate complaints about Wikipedia processes shouldn't be sanctionable. This is entirely separate from the objections that can (and should) be levied against the vague, inarticulate wording of the sanction that's in place. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 05:11, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by EEngI very much disapprove of TRM's general style, but the cited remedy ( Statement by (username)Result concerning The Rambling Man
|
Debresser
Blocked for 2 weeks for WP:1RR violation. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:49, 25 January 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Debresser
This is a clear 24-hour 1RR violation. Debresser is well aware of the sanctions, as evidenced by his talk page, block log, and his many complaints here about other editors.
Discussion concerning DebresserStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DebresserIt seems to me that my 25 January 09:50 edit was my first revert. Why would this be a 1RR violation? The 24 January 17:56 edit was an original edit, in which I singled out specific sources as superfluous and irrelevant to the statement, after consensus had been reached to keep the statement itself. I also opened a talkpage section. My 25 January 09:50 edit was not a revert, whatever GoldenRing may say. I have noticed that GoldenRing is very biased regarding my edits, and will try to interpret anything in my disfavor, rightfully so or otherwise. Debresser (talk) 14:41, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Base on the consensus here that the first edit was a revert, I would self-revert now, just that the article is protected... In general, I am not happy that the first thing people here think about is blocking. You could start with explaining a person's mistake. The approach here is bad faith, and that is not what Wikipedia says the approach should be. Debresser (talk) 15:33, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by ShrikeThe first diff is not a revert but an edit.When those sources were added in the first place?--Shrike (talk) 13:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by KingsindianWould have been better to ask Debresser to self-revert first. It's easy to break 1RR by mistake. Btw, it's irrelevant if the first edit is a revert or not. When an edit is reverted, the person shouldn't restore the edit again within 24 hours. This is a violation both of the "old amended 1RR" rule and "new amended 1RR rule". [Incidentally, how many people even know about the "new rule"? I don't really mind, since the new rule is silly, but somebody is bound to break the new rule (without breaking the old rule) sooner or later.] To repeat, it would have been better to ask Debresser to self-revert first. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:38, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by IcewhizThe content being removed was definite citation overkill (5 refs) in the LEDE to support a single word ("controlled"), which Debresser reduced to 2 citations without modifying any text.Icewhiz (talk) 15:44, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by usernameResult concerning Debresser
|
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Debresser
Declined. Lankiveil (speak to me) 12:27, 27 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
---|---|---|---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by DebresserTwo reasons: 1. I would have reverted myself if not that the page was protected. 2. It would be more logical to simply topic ban me for two weeks, then I could continue editing in other areas. Note: Reason copied from the user's talk page and the remainder filled in by GoldenRing (talk) 14:04, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by KingsindianAE sanctions can be appealed at AE, or AN or ARCA. Of course, appeals are rarely granted, but still, there's nothing wrong with the request itself. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Coffee
Statement by Malik ShabazzI recommend that the appeal be declined. The reason Debresser was unable to self-revert is that 15 minutes after he started edit-warring at an article where he has a history of edit-warring, Favonian protected the page. It seems to me that Debresser is complaining that he should be unblocked because he was prevented from cleaning up the disruption he created because others had taken steps to minimize its damage. That's a lot of chutzpah. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 3)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Debresser
Result of the appeal by Debresser
|
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- "TheTimesAreAChanging placed on indefinite probation in the topic area for refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits."
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- [38]
Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging
I made a single normal edit to List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations, which I believe was mandated by BLP, at 19:54, 25 January 2018, after previously broaching the idea two days earlier and getting qualified support from My very best wishes. BullRangifer, the creator of the article and who has a very different perspective on these matters than I do, thanked me for my edit, later defending it on the talk page. The article was not under DS at the time; if it had been, I probably would have been less collaborative, as there were several paragraphs of "Commentary" (e.g., here) that I might have "challenged." (If possible—creating a new article without such sanctions is obviously a way to bypass them and force content through, if the content is considered "long-standing" by the time the sanctions are in force.) Yet SPECIFICO, who had no problem with the several paragraphs of opinion commentary, reverted my addition of the widely-reported testimony of Trump's longtime bodyguard, Keith Schiller, stating that "Statement of Trump's denial is sufficient." I disagreed, so I made a single normal revert at 07:19, 26 January. (To date, none of the editors in the ensuing discussion have agreed with SPECIFICO.) Ten hours later, after SPECIFICO inaccurately told Coffee that I had violated the article's non-existent DS at 17:39, Coffee added the template (including his brand-new "civility" requirement) at 17:43 and logged it at 17:45. While acknowledging that "I couldn't do more as the page restrictions hadn't been added to that article yet," Coffee still decided to place me on indefinite probation for violating the DS, which he apparently considered to take effect retroactively. I think this sanction is just another example of Coffee's heavy-handed and erratic behavior as an administrator, and would like to see it reviewed and revoked.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Floquenbeam, I am 99% certain that DS were not in effect at the time of my edit, and I looked carefully. Once the talk page has been tagged, I believe that the warning remains visible on earlier revisions of the talk page, but that does not mean that the warning was actually there the whole time. That's why I included Coffee's confirmation that "the page restrictions hadn't been added to that article yet," as well as the relevant log, which states:
"List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations placed under indefinite 1RR/consensus/civility required restriction."
TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Floquenbeam, I honestly did not see that. I've stricken my comment above.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
When SPECIFICO violated Discretionary Sanctions at Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections ([39], [40]), I warned her and she self-reverted. When I (inadvertently) violated Discretionary Sanctions (that had not been logged, with no edit notice), I returned to Wikipedia and suddenly found that SPECIFICO had reported me directly to Coffee and I had already been sanctioned, with no opportunity to respond. How is this sanction anything but punitive?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Mandruss, this comment really misses the mark. No, I didn't check the log, but I obviously wouldn't have made the edit if there had been an edit notice.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Here's the talk page as of the time of my revert: [41] I had not edited it, and there was not yet any discussion of the disputed content. Coffee could have easily asked me to self-revert before immediately imposing a new hard-to-understand restriction.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:26, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Coffee
Trying to go to sleep but I have to correct what is being misrepresented here: The sanction was for a violation of overall WP:ARBAP2's standards of conduct. It was done under authority of WP:ARBAPDS which allow administrators the ability to apply sanctions at their discretion to anyone editing in the topic area. As this user was already made aware of the DS existing in the topic area, the sanction was made in full validity. It was not a sanction based on page restrictions. And my sanctioning of the article, after realizing it wasn't during the review I made, had nothing to do with the probation sanction placed on this user. This is made extremely clear in the sanction notice, and I feel this user is being obtuse. I also agree that this user has already violated the probation sanction (by the comments on their talk page), and I would personally levy a 24 hour block for such conduct. I however really, really need rest after today's events (some of you are aware of) and therefore will not be conducting that action. This is all I will state here for now. Good night/day folks. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:23, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- I'll reiterate for some who are confused on this: The probation restriction is explained in detail at WP:EDR, which is the list of restrictions I'm permitted to use (along with blocks) per my discretion in the topic area, as per WP:ARBAPDS. This sanction is merely more of a severe warning, with one additional caveat: it states that regardless if they edit an article with a direct editnotice on it, with the consensus restriction required, they are not allowed to violated our WP:CONSENSUS or WP:BRD policy in any area of the AP2 topic area. This is simply a way to attempt to prevent disruption, without levying an actual topic ban or a full editing restriction on the user in all topic areas. The full explanation of this is found at our policy: WP:PROBATION:
The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior.
— Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:43, 28 January 2018 (UTC)- @Seraphimblade: See above for further reasoning on why I think this may actually benefit editing in the topic area. Interested to hear your thoughts. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 13:00, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Lankiveil and Seraphimblade: See this note above and my comments in the appeal below this one regarding this matter. Pinging to keep you both in the loop here. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:34, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: Your second comment here is currently in violation of the Arbitration Committee's expectations of administrators in dealing on this noticeboard:
"Administrators wishing to dismiss an enforcement request should act cautiously and be especially mindful that their actions do not give the impression that they are second-guessing the Arbitration Committee or obstructing the enforcement of their decisions."
- I highly suggest you retract it. Or that whomever closes this completely disregards the remark. We are not here to question or comment on ArbCom's decisions, or their decided ways of dealing with conduct issues. All administrators commenting here should have known this before making any statements here whatsoever. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:41, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MrX
TheTimesAreAChanging unambiguously violated the page restriction prohibiting reinstatement of any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article. As surprised that I am that he received the lightest possible sanction, I'm actually shocked that he would have the audacity to appeal it.
In my opinion, the sanction should be increased to a topic ban for blatantly abusing process by Wikilawyering and wasting editors time.- MrX 🖋 20:28, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: Yes, I did overlook that the edit notice was placed after the fact. That does make the situation a bit more ambiguous. However, TheTimesAreAChanging reverted without consulting the talk page which does not bode well in his favor.- MrX 🖋 21:03, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- TTAAC wasn't sanctioned for violating an editing restriction; he was sanctioned for "repeated refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits in the topic area." It is well within an admin's authority to place such a sanction on an editor, so the appeal is completely without merit.- MrX 🖋 21:27, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SPECIFICO
ToTTAAC: Please don't misrepresent my actions by stating the article was not under the Consensus DS at the time you violated it. The history of the talk page clearly shows the DS in effect at that time. [42] Coffee later updated it to add the Civility Requirement. Please withdraw this appeal and if you edit according to policy you will have no further concerns.
Frankly, given TTAAC's previous TBAN, his socking to evade the ban (necessitating in a block on top of the ban [43] and then his quickly-broken assurances that prompted Sandstein to reinstate him, "escalating sanctions" would suggest that a new TBAN would not be unexpected. It's therefore hard to see any problem with the probation imposed by Coffee. SPECIFICO talk 20:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Now I just saw that TTAAC is broadcasting the same disparagement of me and Coffee on the article talk page. Given that he just acknowledged awareness of the Civility Requirement, it seems that a new, second, violation of the DS has occurred as well as a violation of his Probation sanction. [44]
@MjolnirPants and MrX: The new DS template added the Civility Restriction replacing the former template that already included the Consensus Restriction. [45] The Consensus Restriction was in effect at the time of the violation, plainly visible both at the time of the edit and at the time he denied and removed my request on his talk page that he undo the violation. SPECIFICO talk 21:33, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
@DHeyward: I meant to ping you, not MP above. Sorry. You appear to have repeated TTAAC's misrepresentation of the Consensus Required sanction on that page when he made the offending edit. SPECIFICO talk 23:55, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
I am not understanding TTAAC's basis for keeping this appeal open. Here [46] he concedes that he violated the Consensus Required sanction. He says "why wasn't I warned and asked to self-revert?" But here, I warned him six hours before he was sanctioned and asked him to self revert. And his response was to deny the violation, even after he was sanctioned: [47] It's pretty simple and for those who are not familiar with the difficulties of editing American Politics, this is an example of how much time can be wasted denying, discussing, and proving the obvious, all still apparently with no resolution. TTAAC, why not just withdraw the appeal. What basis is their for the appeal given the facts? SPECIFICO talk 00:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
@Sandstein: RE: Probation - Types of Sanctions and WP:PROBATION. I can understand that you disagree with the particular sanction, but the violation of DS is clear and it's part of a long-term pattern of abuse. So I suggest that the solution, if you disapprove of the Probation sanction, would be to apply one you feel would be more suitable and effective. SPECIFICO talk 14:55, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
@My very best wishes: Please see immediately above. SPECIFICO talk 17:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
@My very best wishes: OK, you don't think that WP:PROBATION is meaningful. Is it the purpose of an appeal at this page to second-guess site norms? This is not even the claim the appellant makes. He seems to be going for "I am not actually a disruptive editor" -- i.e. that there's been an error of fact. But nobody's buying that one. So why not propose a different sanction. Sanctions are supposed to be escalating for repeat violations. His last one was an indefinite TBAN he slithered out of. He's wasted a lot of community time since then, routinely disparaging other editors (not least yourself) and failing to engage in collaborative editing. Do you suggest we just wait for the next reunion to rehash the same behaviors next time? SPECIFICO talk 18:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Some of the Admin comments don't appear to focus on the theory of this appeal or the powers of Admins in AE appeals. They read more like box seats at a command performance of ANI. TTAAC has not complained about the particular sanction that Coffee imposed. TTAAC has denied the violation. After all the trouble taken to refute this deflection, does any Admin still believe it's true? So we have an infraction, and in the case of this editor it's one of dozens that have been documented here over the course of the past +/- 16 months. Many of the editors who went to the trouble of providing diffs in those past cases, including the ones that resulted in sanctions, may well have concluded that there's no willingness to enforce DS, let alone escalating blocks, and so the editors with memory of all the bad behavior simply move on. I certainly am not going to waste a bright sunny day dredging up the history of this sad dysfunction and disruption. If you don't like the particular sanction, propose a more effective one. Which Admin is going to waste his or her time in the future exercising discretion when it's only a gateway to the Royal ANI here that AE has become? Otherwise, an AP3 Arbcom case will come sooner or later and what a regrettable outcome that will have been! SPECIFICO talk 18:08, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Steve Quinn
On the article's talk page, several editors have indeed noted that remedies and sanctions were in place when TTAC restored the material (without consensus):
- SPECIFICO [48], [49];
- Seemingly inderectly by Atsme [50],
- Volunteer Marek [51],
- Galobtter [52],
- Mandruss [53]] (It was more of question while supplying a diff showing sanctions were previously in place [54]), Then stating that "the remedies and DS were in place as of four days ago" [55]
- And most recently, myself, apparently after this appeal had already started [56].
So, in a manner of speaking, this was an opportunity for TTAC to undo their edit rather seek an appeal. As was noted below, this is now an opportunity to undo the edit and withdraw the appeal, or simply withdraw the appeal and save time. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 06:14, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Actually, I meant, it seems there was an opportunity for TTAC to undo their edit, and thereby collaboratively participate, before an Admin felt the need to sanction him/her. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 06:32, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging
I think this sanction is just another example of Coffee's heavy-handed and erratic behavior as an administrator, and would like to see it reviewed and revoked.
@TheTimesAreAChanging:I strongly suggest you strike or remove this bit. Not only is it not helpful, it's a personal attack not backed up by evidence. And no, I'm not suggesting you find evidence as that would only exacerbate other issues. Please, just strike or remove this bit (I'll remove this comment as well, if you do). Even if Coffee is the things you allege, that doesn't prove your sanction was unjust; that still needs to be judged on its own merits. For what it's worth, I found the edit you gave a diff of to be perfectly fine, as well. I'd have supported it if I'd been involved at talk. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: I found the following at WP:SANCTIONS:
- Probation (supervised editing)
- The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior.
- I read it to mean that uninvolved admins are free to "stalk" the sanctioned editors edits to that page and issue additional sanctions without further justification (possibly beyond a diff to the edit in question, and a short explanation of what's wrong with it). I agree that it seems to be the most lenient form of sanction, as a gung-ho admin could do the same thing without violating policy to any editor, in theory. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:02, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I found the edit you gave a diff of to be perfectly fine, as well.
With respect, it's not worth anything in this venue, as there is no such thing as a retroactive consensus. The only pertinent facts are: (1) Despite TheTimesAreAChanging's repeated claim, the remedies and DS were in effect at the time of their revert, and (2) the circumstances do not approach a consensus for the edit, by any interpretation I've ever seen in my ~18 months of heavy involvement at Donald Trump. It doesn't speak well for TTAAC that they even mention a "thank" as having an iota of relevance here; the remedies quite clearly state "must obtain consensus on the talk page". There is nothing particularly complicated about these restrictions, even for someone as limited as me. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)With respect, it's not worth anything in this venue, as there is no such thing as a retroactive consensus.
I'm not suggesting that the appeal should be overturned because I think the edit was fine, I'm simply telling TTAAC that I would have defended his edit, even though I took issue with a part of his appeal statement. TTAAC and I are usually at opposite ends of similar discussions, and as such, it's worth pointing out those occasions on which we are in agreement. The idea here is to foster collaboration, not to undermine it, after all. Olive branches and the occasional compliment help with that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:21, 26 January 2018 (UTC)- @SPECIFICO: I haven't said anything about the timing of the restrictions. My comment about his edit was not meant to convey anything more than the knowledge that -had I been aware of the discussion of that edit- I'd have supported including it. See my response to Mandruss, above for more on that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:55, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Overturn. It's another case where we shouldn't be here. It's arguably a necessary edit as a BLP required NPOV presentation. Blanking would also be arguably necessary if sourced, exculpatory statements are not presented. The fact that page wasn't under sanction the entire time is just more grist. Remove "probation" as it's just a setup for any type of future complaint. It solves nothing and only provides an excuse for a flimsy future topic-ban. If anything, convert it to a "reminder." --DHeyward (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam:, it's my understanding that standard DS does not include "1RR/Consensus required" language. That is a page level restriction that is made on a case by case basis. There is no DS violation until page level restrictions are placed and logged. Coffee creates special templates for each page, I believe. --DHeyward (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- This was the notice in place at the time of the violation. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Anyone can place a template. Restrictions, however must be logged here[57]. I only see Today's entry for page level sanctions. --DHeyward (talk) 21:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Primefac see too. --DHeyward (talk) 21:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Anyone can place a template, true, and I once tried to do so out of ignorance. It was promptly disputed and removed because, as the template message says, "An administrator has applied the restriction above to this article." And, iin fact, that template was placed by Amortias, an admin, as the page history clearly shows. Failure to log, if any, is a wikilawyering technicality, as editors cannot be expected to go check the log before taking action. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:42, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's required to be logged. And yes, I do check the logs when I see page restrictions. Logging it is part of the notice requirements and spelled out in the DS ArbCom ruling. And yes, it's ridiculous but being brought to AE on dotted i/crossed t violations under scrupulous rules lawyering should require scrupulous adherence. It's not under page level sanctions unless logged. @Floquenbeam: --DHeyward (talk) 21:52, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Editing restrictions have to be logged, but any admin can sanction any editor editing in the American politics subject area, provided that they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict. See WP:AC/DS. You seem not to grasp that. - MrX 🖋 21:56, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- TTAAC has not stated that they checked the log, couldn't find the log entry, and therefore ignored the template. We can safely assume that is not what happened. Thus your argument has no bearing on the issue of TTAAC's actions, and I repeat the word wikilawyering. It's the old story ending with "...and besides, I don't have a dog." ―Mandruss ☎ 22:00, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's required to be logged. And yes, I do check the logs when I see page restrictions. Logging it is part of the notice requirements and spelled out in the DS ArbCom ruling. And yes, it's ridiculous but being brought to AE on dotted i/crossed t violations under scrupulous rules lawyering should require scrupulous adherence. It's not under page level sanctions unless logged. @Floquenbeam: --DHeyward (talk) 21:52, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Anyone can place a template, true, and I once tried to do so out of ignorance. It was promptly disputed and removed because, as the template message says, "An administrator has applied the restriction above to this article." And, iin fact, that template was placed by Amortias, an admin, as the page history clearly shows. Failure to log, if any, is a wikilawyering technicality, as editors cannot be expected to go check the log before taking action. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:42, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Anyone can place a template. Restrictions, however must be logged here[57]. I only see Today's entry for page level sanctions. --DHeyward (talk) 21:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Primefac see too. --DHeyward (talk) 21:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- This was the notice in place at the time of the violation. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- He wasn't sanctioned for violating an editing restriction. He was sanctioned for or his repeated refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits in the topic area. Admins are given discretion for imposing such sanctions, so this appeal lacks merit. If this were a new editor who had just wandered into a Trump article, I would recommend giving a pass for not seeing the talk page notice. That is not the case here.- MrX 🖋 21:47, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Given that this is not a violation of the page restriction, but a general editor restriction, I am concerned that Coffee viewed TTAC's talk page comments as a probation violation and "blockable" with no diffs and nothing I see as obvious. I am very concerned that this condition will be abused. Everyone seemed to believe this was a page level violation being enforced but now it's not so there is definitely a clarity and communication issue. --DHeyward (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: This is TTAC's only edit to their talk page[58] in 10 days. Blockable probation violation? --DHeyward (talk) 22:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
@TheTimesAreAChanging: I'm astounded that you are still claiming that there was no notice in place. I have already linked to it, I know you saw the link, and you are beginning to bend my AGF. Here it is again: [59] ―Mandruss ☎ 22:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Mandruss:That's the talk page notice, the actual editnotice is here: Template:Editnotices/Page/List_of_Trump–Russia_dossier_allegations. It appears when you try to edit the page. But I agree that the argument that TTAAC was unaware of that condition is untenable. He scrolled past notification every time he edited the talk page. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
@TheTimesAreAChanging: and there was not yet any discussion of the disputed content.
The template says: "any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)". NOT "any edits that have been challenged (via talk page discussion)". Your edit became a challenged edit immediately upon the first revert of it. It seems to me the problem is your unwillingness to read and understand clearly stated restrictions. Editors who are not willing to do that shouldn't be editing articles under the restrictions. One mistake can be forgiven if you're new to the restrictions (are you?), but, after all this discussion you still haven't read, understood, and resolved to observe the restrictions, let alone withdrawn this appeal of a very lenient slap-on-wrist sanction. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Can I draw the admin's attention to the personal attack against Coffee that makes up the latter part of the origina filing? I quoted it at the very top of this section. I've asked TTAAC to strike or remove it, but gotten no response. Would one of you (@Floquenbeam and Primefac:) please at least make the same request for striking it, or redact it yourself? It's really unnecessary, it's inflammatory, and it's petty. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:04, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
I would suggest to grant this appeal per arguments by Sandstein. This is yet another unilaterally invented and unhelpful type of editing restriction that should never be used. P.S. I am not telling that editing by this user was fine. I am only saying such "editing restriction" is meaningless and should never be used. My very best wishes (talk) 17:36, 27 January 2018 (UTC)It seems that type of "restriction" indeed exists. Why? It does not restrict anyone from doing anything. My very best wishes (talk) 03:55, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- You have me totally confused. Are you talking about the restrictions or the sanction? The sanction you linked (probation) does in fact restrict someone from doing something, as it clearly states. That does not make it a "restriction" as the term is being used here; we are referring to the editing restrictions in the remedies template. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:26, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- Restricts from doing what? It tells "Probation is used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior." The contributor does not receive any topic ban. I checked if "probation" was ever issued to anyone as an editing restriction during last two years and found only a couple of cases when someone issued a "probation" and an editing restriction (1RR or a topic ban). Otherwise, it does not make any sense. My very best wishes (talk) 04:36, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- There is a time and place to discuss things like that, and in the appeal of a sanction that follows the letter of the written rules is not it. Since that's an arb page I'm not even sure ordinary editors have much say in the matter, anyway. SS speaks below of "combing through" said rules; I call it knowing the rules better than most admins and that's something to be credited, not criticized. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:04, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- Restricts from doing what? It tells "Probation is used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior." The contributor does not receive any topic ban. I checked if "probation" was ever issued to anyone as an editing restriction during last two years and found only a couple of cases when someone issued a "probation" and an editing restriction (1RR or a topic ban). Otherwise, it does not make any sense. My very best wishes (talk) 04:36, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment I don't think our policies are meant to be combed through to find obscure and rarely cited sections - part of applying and interpreting them is following community norms and customs. For these rules to be effective as deterrents they need to be predictable and comprehensible, based on predictable standards of enforcement that have been developed in community discussions about their applications. My understanding of how a situation like this would usually be handled is that an editor would be formally warned, and then brought to AE where an appropriate article ban or topic ban would be applied in a transparent way after a discussion. I know discretionary sanctions allow an admin to act alone, procedurally, but that doesn't make it a good idea. And I don't think it is necessary here, in fact I have never seen this "probation" sanction used before. I also expect we are going to see additional issues from this new civility restriction. I would support reversing this sanction and issuing a formal warning, as they largely seem to serve the same purpose.Seraphim System (talk) 04:35, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- What is "indefinite probation"? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:24, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @MrX: But was that restriction in place when the edit was made? If I'm reading timestamps right, it was added afterwards? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Answering my own question, it looks like the DS was already in place on the article, based on the talk page notice, but Coffee just recently added the edit notice after TTAAC's edit. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Based on Primfac's comment, I have a 3rd question: is there any reason not to block for that edit instead? That's clearly within the topic area, and the idea that it was exempt because it was a BLP issue is not reasonable. I'm still curious about the firstStriking based on Primefac's strike... --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)twoquestions, though, even if they might be moot. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC)- So to clarify after a multi-admin brainfart... DS were in place, albeit without an edit notice. While I still want to know what "indefinite probation" is, I find it hard to believe that this sanction should be undone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @TheTimesAreAChanging: Looks like they were added on the 22nd: [60]. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @DHeyward: see diff immediately above in my reply to TTAAC. Article sanctions were apparently in place, just no edit notice. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Now I remember why I only edit WP:AE once every 3 months. The arcane rules make my head hurt. As I now understand it, the recent arbcom decision (see WP:ACN) says that page restrictions can't be enforced if there's no editnotice. However, Coffee has just pointed out above that it was a sanction under the general sanctions for this topic, for repeated addition of reverted info in this topic area. Not an article-level sanction. So the question for reviewing admins is: Is this editor probation an acceptable use of admin discretion based on the general American Politics sanctions. Everything else about timing of editnotice is a sidetrack. To answer that question, I'd say that since there are really no consequences to the sanction beyond heightened scrutiny, which was happening anyway due to previous topic ban, that the sanction is reasonable. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- So to clarify after a multi-admin brainfart... DS were in place, albeit without an edit notice. While I still want to know what "indefinite probation" is, I find it hard to believe that this sanction should be undone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @MrX: But was that restriction in place when the edit was made? If I'm reading timestamps right, it was added afterwards? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
So... um... I find it hard to be sympathetic with the OP when they were topic-banned a fortnight ago from WP:ARBAPDS (which, for those living under a rock, is post-1932 politics), and (as I just found) had the appeal declined two days ago, so you shouldn't have been editing the page in the first place. I'm amazed you actually got away with that, so the fact that you're only on probation makes me think that Coffee was actually being lenient. Primefac (talk) 20:32, 26 January 2018 (UTC)@MrX:, they already are ^ Primefac (talk) 20:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)- I'm an idiot who can't read a timestamp (I think I need some sleep as well); the tban was last year. Still, you would think that someone who has been tbanned for this nonsense before would know about how to not get flagged for it again. I stick with my previous statement that I feel Coffee was being lenient with just "probation". Primefac (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @DHeyward:, you're kidding, right? Take a look at the page right before Coffee changed the notice - third notice, second bullet:
Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period).
so... 1RR definitely holds. Additionally, there two arbs who edited the sanction template, which means that by SILENCE or other policy they approved of the language. Primefac (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)- To echo Floq's post above, I agree that the sanction is reasonable; if the OP stays within the bounds of ARBAPDS (because you cannot make the argument that they don't know about it, or that they won't look for DS's in the future) then there is no issue. Primefac (talk) 21:53, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @TheTimesAreAChanging:, I'm going to echo the above request to remove the personal attack/aspersions cast at Coffee re: his admin action history in the last sentence of your original post; not only is it inflammatory but we are not here to discuss their overall conduct as an administrator. Primefac (talk) 23:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- To echo Floq's post above, I agree that the sanction is reasonable; if the OP stays within the bounds of ARBAPDS (because you cannot make the argument that they don't know about it, or that they won't look for DS's in the future) then there is no issue. Primefac (talk) 21:53, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @DHeyward:, you're kidding, right? Take a look at the page right before Coffee changed the notice - third notice, second bullet:
- I'm an idiot who can't read a timestamp (I think I need some sleep as well); the tban was last year. Still, you would think that someone who has been tbanned for this nonsense before would know about how to not get flagged for it again. I stick with my previous statement that I feel Coffee was being lenient with just "probation". Primefac (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Decline the appeal. The sanction is clearly within discretion and, if anything, the gentlest sanction the admin could come up with. The only change I would argue for is for TTAAC to be banned from that page outright, because probation is obscure and not widely understood. GoldenRing (talk) 23:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- I would grant the appeal simply because the sanction does not define or link to what "probation" even is. I don't know what it is either. It's not possible to follow an undefined restriction. This would be without prejudice to imposing a defined restriction. Sandstein 09:22, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
- OK, so probation is apparently "supervised editing". This is pointless in a discretionary sanctions topic area, where everybody is already on probation, so to speak. A sanction that does nothing is a waste of time for everybody. I'd grant the appeal and lift the sanction for this reason. Sandstein 09:07, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- I'm also confused on what "probation" is. An uninvolved administrator can already sanction editors under DS, provided they've been made aware, and can do so immediately upon noticing a violation. So does the "probation" remedy actually do anything at all? It seems to me like an anachronism. Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:15, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- I'm fine with a sanction of some sort being applied here, but add me to the list of admins confused about what "probation" means in this context. Lankiveil (speak to me) 08:22, 28 January 2018 (UTC).
- What Sandstein said. ~Awilley (talk) 16:30, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Signedzzz
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Signedzzz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – zzz (talk) 07:54, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- [61]
Talk:Donald_Trump#Adding_criticized_as_racist_to_lead
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- [62]
Statement by Signedzzz
"sanctioned for casting of aspersions and overall displays rudeness and disrespectful behavior" No aspersions. Any "rudeness and disrespectful behavior at Talk:Donald Trump" pales into complete insignificance compared to the rudeness and direspect shown by this user who out of the blue tells me I'm "sanctioned" and he will henceforth allow me to edit under his supervision for "6 months of probation (supervised editing)".
Statement by Coffee
The probation restriction is explained in detail at WP:EDR, which is the list of restrictions I'm permitted to use (along with blocks) per my discretion in the topic area, as per WP:ARBAPDS. This sanction is merely more of a severe warning, with one additional caveat: it states that regardless if they edit an article with a direct editnotice on it, with the civility restriction required, they are not allowed to violated our civility policy in any area of the AP2 topic area. This is simply a way to attempt to prevent disruption, without levying an actual topic ban or a full civility restriction on the user in all topic areas. The full explination of this is found at our policy: WP:PROBATION: The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior.
I'm not going to disparage any of the admins reviewing this, but I am disappointed by the fact that it seems I'm the only one reading our editing restrictions policy. Regardless, I think this is a smart sanction and will prevent edits like alluding to editor obtuseness, claiming editors are trying to push a biased (in their words "Fox News line") image of the article, without evidence, and accusing an editor's completely fine to have opinion as "fringe", twice. That's all in the course of one day on that talk page. While they didn't go so far as to make a personal attack (wherein I would have levied a block or topic-ban), they did go so far as to begin a tone of discussion where consensus would inevitably be hard to find, as egos and tempers easily start to flare with such aspersions, enough to where a rather respected administrator even noticed the glaring issue. As such, I believe this is an appropriate sanction. And indeed, a light one. It means nothing more than they are on very, very thin ice when it comes to civility now (in dealing with any post-1932 AP2 article) and that they've been given a chance to change their ways instead of simply being blocked. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Lankiveil: See above, for explanation and relevant diffs. (forgot to ping you) — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:19, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown: I think you likely began editing your comment before reading this (based on sig time)... so pinging you so you know I've made a comment here already. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:26, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown, Sandstein, and Lankiveil: Here is just one of many times such an editing restriction has been used to enforce ArbCom cases: Eric Corbett prohibited. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:30, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Seraphim System: No. They would only be blocked for violating WP:UNCIVIL, specifically in the AP2 topic area only. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:33, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: As a friendly reminder, your comment here and in the above appeal are both falling into rather questionable territory when it comes to the Arbitration Committee's expectations of administrators in dealing in AE:
"Administrators wishing to dismiss an enforcement request should act cautiously and be especially mindful that their actions do not give the impression that they are second-guessing the Arbitration Committee or obstructing the enforcement of their decisions."
- @Dennis Brown: I'm all for us opening an RFC on the probation restriction's existence. But, until that happens I don't see a policy backed reason to decline this appeal. At this point the restriction is permitted to be used by administrators, and similar restrictions as yourself stated have been used without successful appeal in the past. Based on precedence alone then, this appeal also holds no merit. But, like I said, if an RFC or ARCA can change or remove the existence of this sanction from the allotted options DS/AE admins have at their disposal, I will be more than willing to follow that new policy/motion. Per WP:AC/P#Dismissing an enforcement request:
When no actual violation occurred, or the consensus of uninvolved administrators is that exceptional circumstances are present, which would make the imposition of a sanction inappropriate, administrators may also close a report with no action; if appropriate, they may also warn or advise the editor being reported, in order to avoid further breaches.
I do not think that applies here, per my reading of WP:AC/DS or any other relevant policies. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:56, 28 January 2018 (UTC) - @Seraphim System: If the uninvolved administrators below inform me that the restriction should be changed to specifically state a block would be the result, I will gladly do so. My reply above to you was a bit informal: I was still considering a potential ban from, let's say, Donald Trump or making comments about other users, etc... but a block is just the easiest response for me to point to (as it is usually the most common occurrence after any sanction violation). But, yes, if found necessary I will change that happily. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 13:08, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown and Sandstein: It is not our job to speculate on or change the policies that ArbCom created just because we don't understand them. If this appeal is overturned I'm taking this directly to an ArbCom case against administrators who "are second-guessing the Arbitration Committee or obstructing the enforcement of their decisions" against the stated Arbitration Committee's expectations of administrators. This isn't personal, it's just that you both need to realize you have no authority to second-guess ArbCom. You do have the authority to see if my sanction was within discretion (it was), and whether the ArbCom policy exists to back up the sanction (it does). If you "grant" an appeal that literally goes against ArbCom rulings (purely out of personal reasons), then I'm afraid you are obstructing the ArbCom's written intent and policy. I realize you're just trying to look out for some sanity in these processes (hell everyone has since they were created) but I have to stand firm on this. No administrator is allowed to repeal an Arbitration Committee ruling. If we want to hold an RFC on this matter, specifically at ARCA or like manner, then by all means do so. But, as of right now I'm literally enforcing something that is linked to in the {{ds/alert}} template:
This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. (emphasis mine)
And directly in the link provided under "Types of restrictions" is this:Probation (supervised editing) - The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior.
- To in any way not enforce this, or to in any way grant an appeal here, is to claim that we know better than the Arbitration Committee, or that we somehow have authority over the Committee's rulings. This is a very dangerous road to walk down my friends, as that is most certainly not what WP:AE was created for, especially considering the name here is "enforcement" not "clarification" or "review board". I urge you again to reconsider, based on this overwhelming supply of evidence and policy. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:31, 28 January 2018 (UTC)- @Dennis Brown: My intention there was not for you to think I would even name you in the case (unless you closed this of course), which is why I simply said "administrators" not "Dennis Brown and Sandstein". Just to clear that up. I do understand your right to opine differently about certain policies/procedures, but I'm also reminding whomever closes this appeal that doing it because of questions about ArbCom decision's validity or likewise would be entirely out-of-process, and likely actionable by ArbCom themselves. This reminder is not intended as a threat (god how I wish I was talking to you in person... so you could hear my intent)... I'm literally just trying to nail into y'all's heads that AE isn't ANI. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:57, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown and Sandstein: It is not our job to speculate on or change the policies that ArbCom created just because we don't understand them. If this appeal is overturned I'm taking this directly to an ArbCom case against administrators who "are second-guessing the Arbitration Committee or obstructing the enforcement of their decisions" against the stated Arbitration Committee's expectations of administrators. This isn't personal, it's just that you both need to realize you have no authority to second-guess ArbCom. You do have the authority to see if my sanction was within discretion (it was), and whether the ArbCom policy exists to back up the sanction (it does). If you "grant" an appeal that literally goes against ArbCom rulings (purely out of personal reasons), then I'm afraid you are obstructing the ArbCom's written intent and policy. I realize you're just trying to look out for some sanity in these processes (hell everyone has since they were created) but I have to stand firm on this. No administrator is allowed to repeal an Arbitration Committee ruling. If we want to hold an RFC on this matter, specifically at ARCA or like manner, then by all means do so. But, as of right now I'm literally enforcing something that is linked to in the {{ds/alert}} template:
- @Winged Blades of Godric: Would you rather I placed a topic-ban on talking about other user's intentions instead, or perhaps a block? I'm interested to here your solutions to these problems. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:51, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Signedzzz
These are some of the most recent diffs I could find, but I am not sure if these are the diffs that formed the basis for Coffee's decision to sanction here:
- [63] "Racism is surely the most significant in terms of repercussions and connecting with voters, not just a "controversy" like the other examples."
- [64] "This article can continue to follow the Fox News line, or it can follow reliable sources, which will tell you that Trump's racist statements are "an important aspect", as you are well aware. And no sources contradict that, as you are equally well aware."
- [65] "Countless reliable sources report that Trump's racist statements are indeed "an important enough aspect", so (unsourced) WP:fringe theories like that expressed above by User:Emir of Wikipedia can be ignored, in line with policy."
- [66] "I have yet to see any sources backing up your fringe theory that Trump's racist statements are "not an important enough aspect".
- [67] "The past year of research has made it very clear: Trump won because of racial resentment. Another study produces the same findings we’ve seen over and over again.]"
- [68] "Yeah, they are a reliable source, though. That's what articles are based on. You don't have any backing up your opinion."
Seraphim System (talk) 08:24, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Same sanction as TTAAC above. --DHeyward (talk) 08:58, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- I don't really understand what the new "civility restriction" is - I think this has been floated before, but I thought WP:NPA was enough? I have seen editors sanctioned for it here before, but these cases have been more difficult and controversial than a simple 1RR or consensus required violation. What does the page restriction add that is not already covered by existing policies and procedures? Our policies say a lot of things: Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Expectations_of_administrators, Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Page_restrictions, Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Sanctions
- I am having difficult understanding why multiple appeals about novel issues are currently open at AE that have never been discussed at AE or anywhere else. This makes it difficult to discuss an appeal, especially if the sanctioning admin is not available to respond to requests for diffs post-sanction. Seraphim System (talk) 11:38, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- So, if I understand Coffee's explanation correctly, and I am not sure that I do - this was not an WP:NPA but since the user has been put on probation, for a second occurrence that similarly is not an WP:NPA a full topic ban would be applied under the new restriction? Seraphim System (talk) 12:30, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Coffee: Thank you for clarifying that. In the sanction notice you left for Signedzzz you wrote
If you do not adhere to the standards of WP:CIVILITY as is required on many controversial articles, this sanction will be escalated to either a topic-ban or block.
[69] - the language of probation also directly references topic bans or article bans so I was confused by this. Would you be willing to revise the current probation sanction you placed to limit it to a block, as you confirmed above? I will leave it to admins to consider whether there was an enforcement request etc. Seraphim System (talk) 13:04, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Coffee: Thank you for clarifying that. In the sanction notice you left for Signedzzz you wrote
- So, if I understand Coffee's explanation correctly, and I am not sure that I do - this was not an WP:NPA but since the user has been put on probation, for a second occurrence that similarly is not an WP:NPA a full topic ban would be applied under the new restriction? Seraphim System (talk) 12:30, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment--
- We aren't kids studying in the 2nd standard and neither is ArbCom the equivalent of the class-monitor.What matters is the worthiness or functional benefit of the imposed sanction and that could be defended without clumsy attempts at unnecessary process-wonkery and threats to run off to the Arbs.
- Echo Sandstein and DB in their entirety as to Probation.Winged BladesGodric 15:42, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- I fail to see an diff that supports anything that ought to be rather than, can be DS sanctionable.So, I will prefer to let off with a warning to avoid these, failing which sanctions may be imposed at any time by any uninvolved sysop at their discretion.Winged BladesGodric 16:16, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Signedzzz
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'm not too keen on wading through that talk page. @Coffee: can you point us to some diffs of this user's objectionable conduct? Lankiveil (speak to me) 08:20, 28 January 2018 (UTC).
- As above, I'd grant the appeal because "probation" is a sanction that does nothing in a DS topic area, where everybody is already on probation. Sandstein 09:08, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- Grant appeal - I had never heard of probation until it was suggested in a case a few notches up the page, and then I noticed it has only been used a half dozen times. Might be best to RFC it off the books because it accomplishes nothing that DS itself doesn't already accomplish. The other problem I have is a "civility" restriction, which is entirely too easy for any admin or editor to game. There is so much systemic bias in the system, no one can define "civility" in a universal way, so there is no way to objectively enforce it under most circumstances short of a WP:NPA or long term abuse, both of which don't need a special sanction to enforce. I'm not saying that a sanction wasn't warranted because I don't have examples from the sanctioning admin in front of me. The examples given by Seraphim System don't seem that egregious, people are going to bump heads a little and I don't think we can police that away. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:22, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- It isn't about you doing anything "wrong" Coffee, it is about the unenforcability of the sanction itself. As Sandstein points out, everyone is already kind of on probation with any DS topic, particularly when they are notified and a sanction can be issued without any further warning. The Eric Corbett case (which I am very familiar with) is a perfect example of why formal civility restrictions do not work, and are prone to interpretation thus unequal enforcement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:17, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- Coffee, you are of course welcome to file it at Arb and I wouldn't take it personal. In this situation, we have to decide if the sanction fits the situation, and it seem that Sandstein and I agree it does not, although for atypical reasons. Opining in this section isn't an admin action, closing and implementing an action is (see previous Arb cases) but I have no issue being named in an Arb case as I'm quite confident I haven't violated any policy. Just because Arb authorizes a sanction, that doesn't require us to use that sanction, nor does it require us to accept that sanction on appeal if we feel it is inappropriate for a given situation. I fully accept that you do, and I'm not questioning your faith in this, but in this particular case, my judgement is that it is not an effective and/or fair solution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:48, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- I got that Coffee. I already saw how others might misinterpret it but I know you well enough to understand you are talking about procedure, not personalities. If it goes to Arb, I fully expect to participate, which isn't something I do often nor enjoy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:21, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- Grant appeal per Dennis Brown. I'm not crazy about the assumptions about others' motives in the diffs provided, but I don't see them as rising to the level of incivility that needs to be officially sanctioned. Also add me to the list of people who doesn't understand what "probation" is supposed to achieve. It feels like it's just a scary and annoying way of saying "I'm watching you." (Note about involvement: I think I remember being in a content dispute with zzz last year. I don't feel that is influencing my opinions here.) ~Awilley (talk) 16:28, 28 January 2018 (UTC) Further note: It looks like these new civility restrictions are now being applied to at least 75 different articles per [70] (Ctrl+F civility) ~Awilley (talk) 16:37, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- Grant appeal. I can't see anything in the diffs that should attract a sanction, and it isn't clear what probation would be in this context. SarahSV (talk) 16:50, 28 January 2018 (UTC)