User talk:Jimbo Wales

Your social network is being identified with Wikipedia

"Finally, Wikipedia Is Making a Social Network", "Wikipedia is taking on Facebook with a new social network", "Wikipedia is creating a social network" (Italian).

While the above headlines certainly highlight many of the problems with the media that your projects have tried to solve, this is likely causing some problems for Wikipedia now. Is there anything that your organization, or maybe someone from WMF Communications, could do about the misleading/inaccurate reports claiming these things? --Yair rand (talk) 01:26, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

You shouldn't worry too much about these. Sometimes it's just not worth correcting the lower grades of publishers. Most of this is just headlines that are off. Source 1) states the (non)connection between the WMF and WT, pretty well, but then very badly in the next sentence - so it ends up that you'll really only be misled if you believe the headline. I don't believe most headlines these days. Source 2) is short and only the headline looks off (on a quick reading). Source 3) is short, but manages to plagiarize 1). In short, my advice is fuggitabowdit. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:13, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Free clues:

1. If the logo of your project contains the phrase "news focused social network" don't be surprised if sources assume that it is a social network.
2. If the main page of your project contains no "about us" explaining the difference between wikitribune, wikibooks, wikipedia, etc. and Jimbo advertises it with tweets like this[1] don't be surprised if sources assume that it is connected with Wikipedia.

I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:35, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Jimmy isn't responsible for other peoples' misunderstandings. Wiki is a generic, descriptive word. Anybody can use it for anything. Jehochman ^Talk 14:58, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I do think I have a responsibility to correct misinformation - I'm following up with any of these that I find!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:02, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Have you considered putting an "about us" or "about this site" link on https://wt.social/ to help the next journalist who writes about this to avoid making a similar mistake? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:43, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

(...Sound of crickets...) ---Guy Macon (talk) 22:17, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I have applied to join WT.Social and am number 248572 on the waiting list. I didn't realise that you can't join immediately unless you pay a fee, or speed things up by recommending friends. The subscription is 10 GBP per month, or 80 GBP per year. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 13:30, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Tools for detecting CP?

Jimbo, talk page watchers, WMF, anyone: please, think of the children! (but for realsies) See c:Commons:Village pump/Technical#I will no longer be looking for copyvios or child porn. A valuable tool to detect this crap has been taken away for reasons that aren't supported by any evidence and this outcry is simply ignored. If we can't have it back permanently, it should be replaced by a good alternative before it gets disabled.

Please, think of the children. - Alexis Jazz 20:26, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Simple solution: Make it so that abandoning a productive discussion with the users with no explanation is a fireable offense at the WMF. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:58, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

The real problem is the cop-out "based on the community voting exercise each year" mentioned in the discussion. Vital tools will not win general support in a beauty contest among those with time to spend at meta:Community Wishlist Survey 2020. There needs to be a way for such tools to be discussed at a higher level. Johnuniq (talk) 22:26, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Did the community voting exercise specifically ask about this tool? If so, were users of the tool notified of the discussion? --Guy Macon (talk) 04:00, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't know, but probably not. My comment is based on experience from requests in previous years, mainly for anti-spam tools as I recall. Even something obvious like fixing Special:LinkSearch so it finds http and https without fuss cannot be requested because the number of people who would prefer nicer user boxes exceeds the number who try to keep spam under control. Johnuniq (talk) 04:24, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

@Johnuniq and Guy Macon: Community Wishlist makes no difference: "Wishes for Wikidata or Wikimedia Commons are not eligible." - Alexis Jazz 06:30, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

And yet Jdforrester (WMF) wrote "In general, power tools support is carried out by the wonderful Community Tech team based on the community voting exercise each year (next time starting in a few months' time)."[2] And this phabricator comment[3] implies that there are now time limits (not treating a user with 10 years and a million edits as a new user) but mentions nothing about the main functionality used to find newly posted child pornography going away. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I have been talking about the general case (wish lists since they started), not the specific limits on the current list. In general, vital tools will not gain more support than other more glamorous proposals because most participants would not regard something like an anti-spam tool as useful to them. Johnuniq (talk) 07:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

The community wishlist is a joke by itself, when things get serious they define it as out of scope, too big a task (see diff, diff). It is fine if something is out of scope for that team, but gathering input does show that there is a significant problem that needs to be solved, and there should be an effort to get that solved instead of shoving it under a rug (or just disabling it because you can't be bothered to find a solution and are seriously disconnected from the community). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:42, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

{{Ping}} you claimed that the Phabricator issue indicated that the "Show contributions of new accounts only" checkbox was removed from the Special:NewFiles list on Commons for performance reasons, but did not respond for weeks when others said that they could find no such indication. My limited understanding of the query and schema involved suggests that there aren't any substantial performance issues at all, and even if they were they would be realized solely in the process querying on the filter, from which there have apparently been no complaints; in fact this filter serves a profoundly useful function thanks to those patrollers who are kind enough to monitor its results. Would you please clarify this? EllenCT (talk) 08:35, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Please try to keep this productive. Whatever communication problems may exist, or whatever lack of interest in developing vital tools there may be, random editors are not in a position to pass judgment about the performance issues mentioned by Jdforrester. It is simply unproductive to doubt the conclusions of an expert who has access to development tools that allow serious system monitoring. Johnuniq (talk) 08:40, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

It's moot. Steinsplitter apparently had anticipated this years ago, and has replaced the functionality including thumbnails uploaded from new users to Commons on Toolforge at https://tools.wmflabs.org/newbie-uploads/ and (someone) has linked that from where the removed checkbox used to be. (But in my defense I note that Jdforrester said he had "eyeballed" it instead of making measurements from system monitoring.) EllenCT (talk) 08:47, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Johnuniq, what I do find worrying is that again WMF just decided to remove it, again without expectations/anticipation to the consequences (in this case: despite Jdforrester 'eyeballing' the logs, people were actually using it and find it a necessary tool to maintaining the site). Again no communication beforehand, no proper pathway to replacement, nor making sure sufficient alternatives exist. It is in perfect line with necessary tools that are left to rot away. I find it a very, very weak excuse, and a very very typical WMF excuse that user:Jdforrester (WMF) has: it is too much work to properly solve this, so we just remove it. Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 10:30, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. A quick workaround for the missing tools (and the 500 hard limit to viewing contributions instead of the previous 5000) would be to make them work only if the user has suitable rights with a strong message to the community that the number of people with the right has to be small. Johnuniq (talk) 23:26, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

The CASE Act

Jimbo, the US Congress has been fast-tracking a new $30,000-per-violation administrative, extrajudicial, unappealable copyright penalty called the CASE Act which puts the burden of proof on alleged infringers for the fair use exemptions on which prolific editors rely often several times per day, requiring a time-consuming and dangerously manipulable administrative process.[4] It's unclear if the noticing requirements are compatible with editors' pseudonymity (is email or a user talk page notice "reasonable means" of personal service?) or whether they would require the Foundation to identify pseudonymous editors ("the Copyright Claims Board may approve additional relevant discovery ... and may request specific information and documents from participants in the proceeding and voluntary submissions from nonparticipants [and] may apply an adverse inference with respect to disputed facts against a party who has failed to timely provide discovery....")

I believe this rises to the level of an existential threat and ask that you ask the Foundation to take a strong and active position against the bill before the Senate votes on it. Thank you for your kind consideration of this request. EllenCT (talk) 08:26, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

EllenCT, has the US ever passed a law which you didn't consider an existential threat? ‑ Iridescent 13:33, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I am okay with the Federal Reserve Act and the ratification of the Charter of the United Nations. EllenCT (talk) 20:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

"Do that again and you are fired."

Please see the response of the Wikipedia community at Wikipedia:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram#End of community consultation on temporary and partial office bans. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:47, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Links to crime sites

Jimbo, do we have a policy about linking to sites that facilitate criminal activity? When I ask that, I am thinking specifically about drug marketplaces, carding sites, assassination markets, and other sites related to criminal activity. The nearest thing to guidance I could find is WP:EL but I don't think that covers links in articles about a site. I know that in some cases we are linking to sites that have become associated with criminal and/or terrorist activity, such as 8chan and The Daily Stormer, but I am talking about sites that are inherently about crinimal activities. I know people are going to start screaming "CENSORSHIP!" before they even finish reading my comment, but there's a difference between just discussing a subject and providing working links to dangerous sites. Bitter Oil (talk) 21:17, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Many of the sites that do this sort of thing are .onion sites and can be accessed only with the Tor browser. If you try to add a link to a .onion site to a Wikipedia article, it will not save because these links are blacklisted. Can you give a specific example of where a site like this was linked from a Wikipedia article? WP:EL guidelines would cover most of this, particularly if the material was illegal under United States law.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 21:34, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

The article that prompted me to ask was Tor Carding Forum, which is a site for trading illegally obtained credit card information. Darknet sites may be "blacklisted", but that hasn't stopped people from adding the addresses. Yes, you might have to cut and paste them, but I think most people can manage that. See Dread (forum) and Agora (online marketplace) as two examples. Is there a policy about linking to the darknet? I couldn't find one. Bitter Oil (talk) 21:43, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

I couldn't get any of these sites to work, possibly because they are defunct (like the link to Agora) or down for some reason. If you have concerns about any external link possibly being illegal, the best thing to do would to be to raise it at WP:ANI.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 21:58, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ianmacm: You couldn't access Tor Carding Forum? As for the darkweb sites, "defunct" doesn't necessarily mean gone forever. These sites have a habit of popping back up. Just because it isn't available now, doesn't mean it won't be available again in the future. But if it were truly dead and gone, why have the address anyway? Do we have a policy about this somewhere? I don't want to start a thread on ANI if there's nothing to stop the links from coming back again... Bitter Oil (talk) 22:25, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Before you report it to ANI, you need to establish that we have a policy against "linking to sites that facilitate criminal activity". Most such sites would be rejected for other reasons, but where is the policy specifically outlawing linking to sites that facilitate criminal activity?

If you really want to ban "linking to sites that facilitate criminal activity" the first site that you need to ban is Wikipedia. See

Molotov cocktail#Design,

Gun-type fission weapon,

Methamphetamine#Synthesis,

History and culture of substituted amphetamines#Illegal synthesis,

Illegal immigration#Methods, and

Confidence trick#Stages of the con.

Then you have to get rid of links to places like [ https://aardvark.co.nz/pjet/cruise.shtml ] (linked from Bomb-making instructions on the Internet)

But wait! There's still more! Valhalla (steam yacht, 1892) links to [ http://www.unmuseum.org/tales.htm ]. nothing illegal there, but unmuseum also hosts [ http://www.unmuseum.org/buildabomb.htm ].

You would also have to ban Gizmodo [ https://gizmodo.com/how-to-build-a-diy-nuke-5572897 ],

Quora [ https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-make-a-small-nuclear-bomb-at-home ],

the BBC [ https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20120607-nuclear-weapons-in-ten-steps ]

The Atlantic [ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/12/how-to-get-a-nuclear-bomb/305402/ ]

and many other sites.

Then, after you have banned all of the above. you need to ban this reply.

BTW, making a site a clickable link is just a convenience. You can easily cut and paste 3g2upl4pq6kufc4m.onion (it's safe. Trust me.) into the Tor Browser from this post. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:32, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

WP:NOTHOWTO is definitely unevenly applied to recreational drugs syntheses, which are far more detailed and practical than articles on synthesizing useful chemicals like plastics. EllenCT (talk) 06:11, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

The article Tor Carding Forum is fully protected, which shows that admins have known about problems with it in the past. The only external link I can find is https://cdgfrm.com/ and it won't load for me.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 22:39, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ianmacm: I don't know why the link doesn't work for you. It does work, though. I do not recommend accessing these sites, by the way. The reason the article is protected is because people were changing the link, presumably to drive traffic to competing carding sites. Again, is there a policy about this anywhere? Bitter Oil (talk) 23:49, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

@Guy Macon: I'm not asking about information that might allow people to do something illegal, I am asking about sites that are wholly dedicated to facilitating criminal behavior. What are the guidelines? It seems like I can't link to a site that might have copyrighted song lyrics, but I can link to a site that sells illegally obtained credit card information for the purposes of fraud? That seems really, really odd to me. Bitter Oil (talk) 23:54, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

If a website contains any one of content that is illegal to access in the United States, Individual web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services, sites that work only with a specific browser or in a specific country or Sites that are not reliably functional and/or not likely to continue being functional—which between them describe pretty much the entire dark web—then no, we don't want them. The criteria for links we don't want are at WP:ELNO. ‑ Iridescent 23:58, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

All of which make perfect sense. The key here is that "content that is illegal to access in the United States" (the actual rule) and "sites that are wholly dedicated to facilitating criminal behavior" (what Bitter Oil (now that the goalposts have been moved) wants to ban) are two entirely different things. For example, in the US it is illegal to access a site that contains child pornography. It is not illegal to access a site that sells illegal drugs or credit card numbers. It is illegal to actually buy either of those of course. And lest we forget, "content that is illegal to access in the United States" is only a tiny part of what Wikipedia doesn't allow you to link to. I can't think of any example where a site that sells illegal drugs or credit card numbers -- even though not illegal to access -- would in any way be acceptable as a link on Wikipedia. It would never pass WP:RS, for one thing. But we do link to [ https://aardvark.co.nz/pjet/cruise.shtml ] from our Bomb-making instructions on the Internet article. It is legal to view that page and it is allowed by Wikipedia's rules to link to that page, but making your own cruise Missile is illegal in the US. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:45, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Getting somewhat off the point, but unless you fitted an explosive warhead—which would fall foul of more general laws about the handling of explosives—I'm not at all convinced building a guided missile would be illegal in most jurisdictions. The US has a long tradition of amateur rocketry. Launching your home-made missile without the appropriate permissions would be another matter. ‑ Iridescent 01:01, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

@Guy Macon: I'm not "moving the goalposts" at all. I came here asking what the rules were because I stumbled across something that troubled me. I don't like that we link to crime sites and I don't think we should link to crime sites. That's my opinion but I am willing to listen to other opinions. Let's hold off talking about banning things until we agree on whether this is covered by one of our existing guidelines already. Thanks. Bitter Oil (talk) 04:39, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Actually, you kind of did move the goalposts. First you talked about "linking to sites that facilitate criminal activity" then, after I listed The BBC and The Atlantic doing exactly that, changed it to "sites that are wholly dedicated to facilitating criminal behavior"

As for your question "I came here asking what the rules were because I stumbled across something that troubled me", the answer is at WP:NOTCENSORED. I know you don't like that rule, but I can assure you that the folks who don't want us to show images of Mohamed like it even less. The good news is that probably 99.9% of such sites are not allowed to be linked for other reasons, so the effect is close to the same. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:06, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

WP:NOADS likely covers any advertised criminal activity. The Terms of Use seems to cover most of this as well, in particular Section 4 which covers fraud specifically and then a catchall section

Misusing Our Services for Other Illegal Purposes

• Posting child pornography or any other content that violates applicable law concerning child pornography;
• Posting or trafficking in obscene material that is unlawful under applicable law; and
• Using the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable law.

Especially that last line. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 05:09, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

"Purposes" is a key word here. If I insert a link to my favorite rock band's website for the purpose of advertising or promotion, that's not allowed. However, we link to the websites of many bands because they are notable enough to have Wikipedia pages. The same goes for illegal activity. We link to The Pirate Bay and we link to the two examples Bitter Oil listed at the top ( 8chan and The Daily Stormer ) whether or not they are "sites that facilitate criminal activity" Contrast this with the fact that no matter how notable the topic Child pornography is we don't link to it or provide any examples of it. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:06, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Not sure why I can't access https://cdgfrm.com/ but there is a snapshot of it on the Wayback Machine that can be found here. Yep, it's a carding forum, and these do exist on the clearweb as well as the dark web. Since IANAL it's hard to say how legal this is, and whether it meets WP:EL.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:37, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Works for me. https://cdgfrm.com/ redirects to https://cardingforum.co/ -- which has a link to https://carding.page/ where you find ajnghe5vbdd4tf3ffkn6bclfipein6fv4ef7pb2om7klox4lfd4z3uyd.onion (http, not https). I can get to the www site using either ULR in firefox and I can get to what looks like the same site with the ,onion URL using the Tor Browser. I didn't check but I bet they accept all major credit cards... :( I see zero reason why anyone would want to legitimately link to any of them from Wikipedia, but they are easy to find with Google. --08:04, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

My $0.02 is that it is questionable whether sites like this should be linked from Wikipedia. Maybe there should be a Village pump proposal discussing this.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:19, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

I can tell you something which plagues all these types of site (though it's not strictly limited to these types of site). They are constantly subject to link hijacking, i.e. people adding links which point to an imposter site. I've found that we often have to insist on strictly applying WP:V - to use independent sources to verify that the link refers to the named site. The result (in theory) is that we do what reliable sources do. Most reliable sources won't touch the links with a barge pole, in which case nor should we. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 08:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

That alone is reason enough to reject them, thus bypassing the censorship question. Perhaps we should add mention of site hijacking to ELNO? --Guy Macon (talk) 08:38, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

FYI, this appears to be the case with the carding site mentioned above, with many alternative links being added this year (I suspect they are ALL fake). I've completely removed the link and left a note on the talk page. WP:V is a policy which can't be trumped, but I'm surprised not to find anything about it at WP:ELNO. Maybe something could be added. I would mention that if we get too pedantic about this policy, it can cause problems for obvious links, but for contentious links it can be applied for sure. Also, for the record, we can link to onion sites, and do so at the Daily Stormer (and other pages). I can tell you that I verified that one from independent sources myself. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 09:22, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

AE-DS-POV fork

Jimbo - for clarity purposes...

• Can ArbCom extend their authority, provided they have such authority, and (a) authorize admins to use their sole discretion to create what are basically nuanced POV forks of standard DS, and (b) authorize admins per AE to use their sole discretion and take unilateral actions against editors based on that admin's customized interpretations of DS written to fit a specific editor? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 12:59, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Impossible to remove a rightwing hoax?

I have tried to remove a right wing hoax from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_stress_card but people keep undoing my improvements can you help please. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Military_stress_card#Military_stress_card

WP for sale, to Google?

I just learned that Wikipedia engages with Google: mw:Google_Code-in (since 2013). Where can I find a justification? Really, Google is commercial, only polishing their image—IOW not really helping us nor our readers. What is going on? -DePiep (talk) 23:08, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Oh, and please tell what money goes where, Google<–>Wikipedia. -DePiep (talk) 23:20, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm possibly the WMF's harshest critic but I'm not seeing the basis of your objection. Google Code-in is a long running program in partnership with numerous open-source organisations; yes, it's funded by a commercial company but it's not as if we're forcing people to work in Google's slave-mines, just providing an environment where trainees can experience real-world situations. The WMF doesn't exist in a vacuum and we've always worked with and accepted donations from commercial companies; indeed, we explicitly solicit donations from companies like Google whose success depends in part on reusing our information; we also work with and get donations from Facebook, Microsoft, Apple et al. If you're really such an ideological purist that you can't bear to work on a site that would ever work with a commercial firm, I respectfully suggest that Wikipedia is probably not the website for you (and if you dislike a minor small-scale collaboration with Google, you're really going to blow when you hear about the million dollars we just got from Amazon). ‑ Iridescent 23:39, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

re I'm possibly the WMF's harshest critic ...—no you are not, self-glorifying pig.

... but I'm not seeing ...—I fell asleep. -DePiep (talk) 23:55, 23 November 2019 (UTC)