:#Should we give higher weight to the positions of AVMA, ASVAB, ASPCA, etc, which say that dog bite statistics are unreliable and breed is not a factor in aggression, and treat sources like Time which rely on the work of one person as being a misapplication of statistics? Or,
:#Should we give higher weight to the positions of AVMA, ASVAB, ASPCA, etc, which say that dog bite statistics are unreliable and breed is not a factor in aggression, and treat sources like Time which rely on the work of one person as being a misapplication of statistics? Or,
:#Should we give sources like Time greater weight and treat the statistics as absolutes, and treat the AVMA, ASVAB, ASPCA as biased sources attempting to explain away the statistics? [[User:PearlSt82|PearlSt82]] ([[User talk:PearlSt82|talk]]) 13:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
:#Should we give sources like Time greater weight and treat the statistics as absolutes, and treat the AVMA, ASVAB, ASPCA as biased sources attempting to explain away the statistics? [[User:PearlSt82|PearlSt82]] ([[User talk:PearlSt82|talk]]) 13:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
::I suspect one could easily argue that the AVMA, ASVAB, and ASPCA do have biases that Time doesn't; the ASPCA is an advocacy group. I don't find Dickey reliable for reasons I just posted in another section. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 15:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Revision as of 15:17, 27 August 2020
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Arguments to avoid. Some common points of argument we often see here should be avoided:
"Pit bulls can be very loving." This is not special for pit bulls. All dogs can be loving.
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Please remember that this page is only for discussing development of Wikipedia's encyclopedia article about pit bulls, not about your love of pit bulls. We all love our dogs!
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2018 and 17 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kaitlynn1015 (article contribs).
This article seems heavily biased in favor of promoting a specific viewpoint: that the breed is not dangerous. One of the few neutral articles I could find indicates otherwise. This citation clearly shows over 2/3 of dog related fatalities over a 15 year period in the US were caused by "Pit Bulls", not the 1/3 mentioned in the text.
[1]2600:8801:C200:A8:C829:D6D0:180D:E558 (talk) 00:56, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[]
Can't comment on accuracy of references. Even if all the cited sources are reliable, this entry has turned into a position piece on the safety of pit bulls and the ineffectiveness of breed-specific legislation, as opposed to a descriptive article on pit bulls in general. --Paleogizmo (talk) 18:56, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[]
I don't even care particularly about pitbulls, but the user PearlSt82 has so obviously selectively chosen citations that they agree with, it's very obvious what is going on. Even if the slant is correct, the way it has been written does not seem convincingly neutral. Even if you disagree with me, do you think this is an article about pitbulls, or is this a position piece on the safety of pit bulls and the ineffectiveness of breed-specific legislation, as was stated by the above user? --Menacinghat (talk) 13:55, 25 July 2020 (UTC) Menacinghat (talk) 14:07, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[]
The tone, presentation, and selection of sources is all framed around advocacy, not neutrality. This is a fundamental problem with this article and I'll be working to address it in the coming weeks. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 03:51, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Hello Wikieditor19920, as you can see several editors have been attempting to fix some the many issues with this article over the last 24 hours. The tone of your statement above suggests that you are not satisfied with any of these efforts, what specifically do you see as the issues? Cavalryman (talk) 04:20, 15 August 2020 (UTC).[]
@Cavalryman: What those editors are doing is fine, what I am NOT satisfied with and what is contrary to neutrality is your wholesale removal of relevant, sourced, factual information from the lead. Stop whitewashing this article of controversies and other negative information. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:09, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Hello again Wikieditor19920, please show me a diff where I removed some of your additions to the lead, I did a little copy editing [1] but no more. More, why did you reinsert the issues tags and remove some of the content from the History section? Cavalryman (talk) 20:56, 15 August 2020 (UTC).[]
The fact that the sentence However, a five-year review in the peer-reviewed medical journal Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery in 2009 found that over half of dog attack victims admitted to the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia were attacked by pit bulls. keeps getting deleted despite the fact I used a news article is terrible. I'm sure the scientists were all biased pitbull banners and those reviewing the journal were all biased. Menacinghat (talk) 23:58, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Remove the reference to Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt never owned a pit bull named Jack Brutus. Jack Brutus was a dog that was involved in the Spanish-American War, but the source cited (#84) itself makes no mention whatsoever of Teddy Roosevelt, nor does any other existing source. Teddy Roosevelt did own a bull terrier named Pete, however (https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/610385/theodore-roosevelt-pets). 75.161.235.20 (talk) 00:29, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Not done. You misread the sentence, which is referring to two separate dogs. That said, the Mental Floss article you linked to is a good source for TR's Pete, so I'll add it to the article. oknazevad (talk) 02:28, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[]
Recent primary source additions
As discussed previously on this talk page, primary source additions for medical information are not appropriate. Per WP:MEDRS: Primary sources should not be cited with intent of "debunking", contradicting, or countering any conclusions made by secondary sources. Epistimological and statistical claims need to come from reliable, recent, SECONDARY studies. The same opinion piece posted twice from an NBC blog and livescience are not reliable secondary sources for this information. PearlSt82 (talk) 13:26, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[]
Additionally, stop adding multiple versions of the same source as though they were separate sources as an attempt to bolster the argument. PearlSt82 (talk) 13:29, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[]
psychologytoday, livescience and a peer-reviewed scientific journal are perfectly respectable and have no reason to be mysteriously deleted. This article shows bias in part as was stated before by other users. You're not fooling anyone.
Menacinghat
The psychology today and livescience articles are opinion pieces, which are not peer reviewed secondary sources like literature reviews. The Philadelphia trauma center source is a primary study, no matter how many times you add it. PearlSt82 (talk) 14:02, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[]
Wikipedia literally states that primary sources can be used and aren't inherently bad
"Primary" is not, and should not be, a bit of jargon used by Wikipedians to mean "bad" or "unreliable" or "unusable". While some primary sources are not fully independent, they can be authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, expert-approved, subject to editorial control, and published by a reputable publisher.
Primary sources can be reliable, and they can be used. Sometimes, a primary source is even the best possible source, such as when you are supporting a direct quotation. In such cases, the original document is the best source because the original document will be free of any errors or misquotations introduced by subsequent sources.
Yes, primary sources can be used for some kinds of information, but not for epidemiological or statistical claims from medical sources. See WP:MEDRS. PearlSt82 (talk) 14:10, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[]
You can! See WP:TUTORIAL and get into it! One reason could be that the topic of this article is mostly an American "thing", I note that there are no French or German versions of this article, the closest I found was [2][3]. You can try checking the other language WP-articles (there are several) for WP:RS, and if you find anything good, you can use it here. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:50, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[]
Pitbull introduction
According to the American Veterinary Medical Association, "owners of pit bull-type dogs deal with a strong breed stigma; however, controlled studies have not identified this breed group as disproportionately dangerous."[1] Because owners of stigmatized breeds are more likely to have involvement in criminal or violent acts, breed correlations may have the owner's behavior as the underlying causal factor.[1] Some jurisdictions have enacted legislation banning the group of breeds, and some insurance companies do not cover liability from pit bull bites. Among other roles, pit bulls have served as police dogs, search and rescue dogs, and several have appeared on film.
Shouldn't this section be merged with breed-specific rather than be in the intro?
No. The lede is supposed to summarize the article, and this is a large portion of the article. Stop edit warring these changes in without consensus. PearlSt82 (talk) 14:22, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[]
Breed-specific legislation in intro about pitbull dog
Is information about insurance companies and bans really necessary in an intro about a dog when there is already a lengthy section below? Can we have a consensus of other users.--Menacinghat (talk) 18:40, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[]
Yes, the legal status of this animal in the United States and internationally is absolutely relevant to the lead, and comprises a major section of the article. They are extensively discussed in RS as well. Please see MOS:LEAD and WP:DUE before raising questions about relevance, particularly for content that is clearly pertinent to the topic which are "pit bull type dogs." Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:48, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
ADL source
Even if this is reported accurately - which it still isn't - white supremacist groups aren't using images of "the pit bull", but rather one very specific graphic - I'm not sure that this is WP:DUE. The Taco Bell dog got MUCH more coverage than this, and is still not represented in the Chihuahua (dog) article. PearlSt82 (talk) 11:49, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Additionally, if you look at other symbols noted as hate symbols like the Celtic cross, there are multiple references establishing it as such, reported independently from the ADL. There doesn't seem to be any other sources making this connection other than the ADL - which should speak to points of WP:UNDUE. I would suggest this be removed unless sourcing is better. PearlSt82 (talk) 12:03, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Yes, I have access to this source. 50%+ is dedicated to the Michael Vick case, and uses that as a framework to discuss racial connotations of crime and perceived criminality. A summary of the points raised in the article that could be relevant to this one are as follows:
mentions juxtaposition of popular image of pit bulls as both victims (of dogfighting) and perpetrators of violence
pit bulls/fighting dogs routinely euthanised, especially those confiscated from fighting rings, or suspected being in fighting rings
media sensationalises pit bulls as "killing machine" and "time bomb on legs"
discusses how "pit bull" is umbrella term and not a breed
defines what a BSL ordinance is
idea of breed-specific danger is relatively recent, as recent as the 1980s
in 1980s pit bull attacks connected to gang violence, and thus carried public image of criminality
associated with the hip-hop community, and with it the racist associations that white audiences viewed them
French BSL law and dangerous dogs discussion surrounded by culture of "urban ghettos" and "Afro-American lifestyles" from the United States being exported abroad
discussion of breed being a social construct - human definition applied to somewhat arbitrary characteristics of an animal
reiterates pit bull is not a breed but a "breed type"
discusses media portrayal of pit bull owners as "sociopathic deviants"
discusses how study shows owners misrepresenting breed of dog to avoid stigma of pit bull ownership
discusses feedback loop between "pit bulls, blackness, and the perception of criminality"
frames BSL as proxy legislation against people they would like to, but cannot legistlate against
goes further and says that like in critical race theory, scientific discussions of race will not sway racist thinking, makes connection to this and ideas of dog heredity and breed
direct comparison of dangerous dogs to Charles Mills quote on race "You are what you are in part because you originate from a certain kind of space, and that space has those properties in part because it is inhabited by creatures like yourself"
The dog, which died 125 years ago, has only been memorialized in a painting and there seems to be no photographic evidence to show how accurate the painting may, or may not, have been — and there is no documentary evidence for the dog's breed heritage from the 1890s. For generations, the breed of the dog in the painting has been debated, with no consensus and no end to the debate. Only in the last 10 or 20 years have pit bull afficionados glommed onto the image to claim it as their own as a "pit bull". Prior to that, the dog had almost universally been described in literature as a Fox Terrier or Jack Russell Terrier, and only occasionally to "include some bull terrier" with no further explanation of what "bull terrier" meant, or from which era that language came. As you probably already know, the term "bull terrier" is ambiguous, and though often used to mean "pit bull type" or similar, it was also used to mean the formal breed of Bull Terrier, a particular breed of dog with a uniquely odd facial structure that does not look like a pit bull. Only of late have people leapt to the conclusion that this dog's breed somehow meant "pit bull" or "pit bull mix", but looking at the literature over the decades shows such assumption are only a recent phenomenon.
As such — that the dog's breed remains unknown, cannot be known, and no one can agree on guessing it — it would be inappropriate to include it in Pit bull#Notable pit bulls because it is not representative of the subject of the article. Per WP:ONUS, it is on you to prove your position. Sure, you can cherry pick only the citations which call him a pit bull, and I could pick out a dozen more that never even mention "bull terrier" let alone "pit bull". Both efforts would be a waste of our time.
Agreed, guessing modern pedigree for a 100+ year old dog is a futile exercise, especially such a vaguely defined umbrella term as "pit bull". Would Nipper be labelled as a pit bull if it got taken in a random shelter today? Maybe, but that isn't what can be reliably ascribed to sources. PearlSt82 (talk) 05:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Anyone can guess, but if decent WP:RS guess, WP can use it. The tag is fine. Contradictions between WP-articles can be solved (or not, per WP:OTHER) depending on what's in sources. IMO, this dog is so iconic ("only been memorialized in a painting"? Even I recognized that image[5]) he deserves a mention in the section based on the refs I used (compared to other stuff in this section, they're quite good refs). In WP-speech, the refs make it WP:DUE/WP:BALASP for the section. The oldest is from 1997, so this idea has been around awhile. Text under discussion:
WP:RS can guess all they want. If they guess based on photos of paintings or something else, we can only guess. To add to license, the dog was three years dead when the painting was made. Perhaps he was black with white ears. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[]
BTW, at times seen as a pit bull and He was likely a mixed-breed dog, although most early sources suggest that he was a Smooth Fox Terrier, or perhaps a Jack Russell Terrier,[2][3][4] or possibly "part Bull Terrier".[5][6] is not contradictory, is it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:54, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[]
I think main issue is that no one was using the term "pit bull" 100+ years ago, and the "bull terrier" of the late 19th century isn't the same bull terrier of today. Pedigree history is complicated and muddled by sources with commercial interest. PearlSt82 (talk) 16:22, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Weak support removal, according to Merriam Webster the term "pit bull" was first used in 1927[3] so the classification is at best retrospective, further both sources cited make only single fleeting mentions. I definitely think the image should be the removed as it makes this the most prominent mention in the section, the link is tenuous at best.
I would support any proposal to remove the entire section, pit bull is a vaguely defined term and the first paragraph is a collection of uncited OR, statements attributed to unreliable sources, references more specifically describing American Pit Bull Terriers and a number sources that do not even use the words pit bull, in the second paragraph Popsicle and Lilly are the only two exceptions to the above description. Cavalryman (talk) 02:54, 12 August 2020 (UTC).[]
At least some of the sources do appear crappy, this is often the case with "pop-cult" sections. Hopefully good sources can be found for some of the "notables", the rest can be weeded. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:49, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[]
This article is rated Importance=High on the WP:DOGS scale, yet the lede sourcing is appalling. The article lede appears to rest on the view of the American Veterinary Medical Association - who have expertise in performing veterinary surgery but not on dog breeds and breeding - and some suspect newspaper reports. William Harristalk10:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[]
This is largely due to a couple issues - the first being that "pit bull" is often used a catch-all umbrella term and not a pedigree, and that most of the press focuses on breed aggression and legislation. More tangible information about breed and pedigree should probably fall under articles about the individual breeds like Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Likewise, the article attracts a lot of POV pushing, trying to insert single primary studies that claim pit bulls are the most dangerous dog, to counter high level secondary sources like the AVMA who note that controlled studies do not show pit bulls to be disproportionately dangerous and that breed is not a factor in dog bite related fatalities. Certainly there is a lot more room for things to be fleshed out beyond the controversial issues - things like type and pedigree history - if you have good sources covering this angle, please post. PearlSt82 (talk) 13:50, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[]
FWIW, I've done some weeding and added/changed some refs in the first paragraph. IMO, the first paragraph is now in fairly decent shape. ...apart from "Pit bull breeds have acted as war dogs, police dogs, search and rescue dogs, actors, television personalities, seeing eye dogs, and celebrity pets." which is at least partly uncited. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:58, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[]
So, weed anything that doesn't actually say "pit bull"? Like American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, American Bully, Staffordshire Bull Terrier etc? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:20, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Facepalm... You weed out every "historical dog" where there are no contemporaneous records about its breed heritage, because you get all manner of people guessing "what was", and no one is an expert on something they weren't there for and have no records to evaluate. It's all guessing. Try as you might, I'm not going to discuss "pit bull, definition of". My point has always been that Nipper, and several other of the historical dogs, have no record of their breed, and some don't even have photographs (like Nipper doesn't). Content in a Wikipedia article should describe or illustrate the subject of its title to educate a reader. Suppositions have no place in an encyclopedia. It doesn't serve the reader, and it doesn't serve the subject. Normal Op (talk) 09:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Facepalm all you want, I'm asking because I'm considering looking for sources for this section, and I'm after some guidance what I should look for. And my point remains that WP:RS can guess and suppose all they want, they can still be useful content, contemporary or not. I don't care about Pete the Pup's breed heritage, for the purpose of this section I care if there is a decent WP:RS that says he (well, the actors who played him) was a pit bull. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[]
I think RS should explicitly describe the dog either as a "pit bull" or one of the umbrella breeds mentioned. (APBT, etc). "Bull terrier" typically is not considered a pit bull, but as noted, breed history can be complicated, especially dealing with dogs from the late 19th century. With that said, I think many of the dogs here are not notable, but rather, owned by notable people. Daddy (dog) is clearly notable - are the others? PearlSt82 (talk) 13:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[]
^Merriam-Webster (2020). "pit bull". Merriam-Webster. Merriam-Webster, Inc. Retrieved 21 January 2020.
Thank you, sounds reasonable. As for the WP:PROPORTION thing, I'd generally consider something like the TR source good enough for a mention in a section such as this (even if Pete doesn't belong here). There may be better/more sources about Pete, but I think it's adequate. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:05, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Comment, as has been discussed elsewhere, “pit bull” as a type of dog is a classification only used in the North America and the terminology is completely inappropriate when discussing non-American breeds when outside the US, I think if there is a source that describes a dog as a specific breed it belongs there. More broadly, these sections tend to contradict WP:TRIVIA, none of our other dog type pages have such sections, I am now more firmly of the view that the entire section should be removed. Cavalryman (talk) 01:57, 14 August 2020 (UTC).[]
I agree that this is a North American term, and despite its occasional use in the media of other English-speaking countries for sensational purposes, the term is not recognised other than being short for the APBT. (NB: There are 60 people currently watching these recent edits to the Talk page, so the subject is topical.) William Harristalk04:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Tige should not be listed in 'Notable pit bulls' section
19231903
As if discussing a 1890s painting of a fox terrier was bad enough, we now have revolving citations for Buster Brown's dog Tige. One calls him a bulldog, one calls him an APBT, and a third calls him a pit bull. I assert that none of the citations used knows what Tige was. It is an early 1900's comic strip character. If you can find one of the comic strips where the dog's breed was announced or mentioned in the strip, then go with that. Otherwise, ALL of the sources are just guessing and are NOT reliable for this sort of information. If you look at enough of the comics, you'll start to see similarities with Bulldog, the English bulldog type. But our opinion on what a comic strip character is... is not a source. Our evaluation is, however, sufficient to discredit those other "guesses". Normal Op (talk) 11:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[]
The bulldog was my mistake, removed it. I assert that there are good enough sources for this section that says this 2D is a pit bull (I'm counting APBT for that here per above), and on WP, that is what counts. If you want to add him to Bulldog, that could work too. Next on the program: Sallie Ann Jarrett.Sallie Ann Jarrett, Civil War mascot.Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Recently there have been two major changes to the lede:
1. Removal of AVMA sourcing and other sourcing referencing the "danger" of pit bulls. The "Dog attack" risk section is very well sourced from high-quality veterinary and animal behavior sources like the AVMA, CDC and ASPCA. Since this is a major part of the article, I think it needs to go in the lede.
2. Addition of new content for lede that suggests that pit bulls disproportionately bite more. This exact wording is "Each year in the United States, pit bull type dogs are responsible for hundreds of bites on humans or attacks on other animals". These sentences are sourced to Forbes and CityWatch Los Angeles. The first sentence contains "and the dog's proclivity to latching on while biting" which not representative of the source, which is National Geographic, and the last sentence "In the United States numerous advocacy organizations have sprung up in defense of the type, and the pit bull has been the focus of an intense "rebranding" effort in recent years to erase the stigma associated with them." is sourced to a New York Times Opinion piece. We should absolutely not be giving weight to the popular press for how "dangerous" pit bulls are. Instead, we should be going by reliable professional sources like the AVMA, CDC, ASPCA and others for making claims on:
how severely a dog bites (veterinary anatomy)
how often or likely a dog tends to bite (animal behavior)
For these issues, we should be reliant on high-quality WP:MEDRS sources, not the popular press, and to consider sources like the AVMA "advocacy groups" that are trying to 'rebrand' the breed is not appropriate. PearlSt82 (talk) 11:46, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
the removed paragraph was a quote from the AVMA about their perception of a stigma attached to owners of these dogs, this is an article about the dogs not their owners and so I do not believe it belongs in the lead
Thanks Cavalryman, that makes sense. However, dog bite risk/attack is a major part of the article, and is what is going to be drawing many people to the article, so I think the lede should say something about it, even if not incorporating the AVMA cite. Many of these medical cites can be expanded. For instance, Duffy, DL., Hsu, Y. Serpell, JA. Breed differences in canine aggression. Appl Anim Behav Sci 2008;114:441–460. is currently cited in the article, but for only the sentence "The interpretation of these studies, breed identification and relevance", which says nearly nothing. The article goes quite in depth and arrives at several conclusions, but the data does not show that pit bulls bite humans disproportionately more. Something like this summing up the consensus of veterinary sources regarding behavior should appear in the lede. PearlSt82 (talk) 12:06, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
More specifically from this article - "Some breeds scored higher than average for aggression directed toward bothhumans and dogs (e.g., Chihuahuas and Dachshunds) while other breeds scored high only for specific targets(e.g., dog-directed aggression among Akitas and Pit Bull Terriers). ", "The relatively average C-BARQ scores for stranger-directed aggression found among Pit Bull Terriers (Fig. 3A) were inconsistent with their universal reputation as a ‘dangerous breed’ and their reported involvement in dog bite-related fatalities (Sacks et al., 1996). In our survey, nearly 7% of Pit Bull owners indicated that their dogs had bitten or attempted to bite an unfamiliar person in the recent past, somewhat higher than the overall average (4.7%), while 22% reported bites directed at other dogs. This pattern is consistent with the view that this breed has been selectively bred for aggression toward other dogs rather than humans (Lockwood, 1995).", and "In general, we found higher levels of aggression directed toward unfamiliar dogs compared to unfamiliar people (parts A and C in Figs. 1 and 3); however, this pattern was highly breed-specific. Dachshunds, for example, showed similar levels of aggression to both dogs and humans (parts A and C in Figs. 1 and 3) while Akitas, Jack Russell Terriers and Pit Bull Terriers showed substantially greater aggression toward dogs (Fig. 3A and C)" - in short, pit bulls seem to be around average tendency to bite people compared with other breeds, and higher tendency to bite other dogs, especially unfamiliar dogs, possibly due to their lineage as dog fighting dogs. PearlSt82 (talk) 12:14, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
And of course, many of these sources are around 10 years old at this point, so it might be worthwhile to look at recently published literature in these fields. PearlSt82 (talk) 12:16, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
I have no objection to additions to the lead, but I am at a loss as to what that should be, my reading of the Dog attack risk section is it is a collection of random information drawn from a serious of papers that is presented in a completely haphazard manner with very few linkages to the topic of the article, the section title is probably the best linkage. Regards Cavalryman (talk) 13:24, 15 August 2020 (UTC).[]
Do you have suggestions on cleaning up that section? IMO the sourcing is there but I agree could be more concise with prose and directly tying it to the article subject. Its also the POV magnet of the article that I've tried to clean up by dropping old primary studies in favor of recent secondary scholarship - but different sets of eyes smoothing this out would be greatly appreciated. PearlSt82 (talk) 13:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Maybe a better question - would Pit Bull: The Battle over an American Icon be appropriate to rely on heavily on this section as a frame of the "dangerous dog" debate, the nature of the controversy, and history behind it? If people have no objections, I can try to put together a proposed rewrite over the next few days of this section. PearlSt82 (talk) 14:01, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
PearlSt82, I thought I would respond up here to maintain the flow of the conversation. It is my opinion that the Pit bull#Dog attack risk section presents a series of arguments against no proposition; it needs to lead with something about reports of increased risks of attacks by pit bull-type dogs (in the media or where ever) before presenting all of the academic studies on the subject, otherwise it is just a random assortment of findings into nothing. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 01:42, 19 August 2020 (UTC).[]
Thanks Cavalryman, that makes sense. Over the next week or so I'll try to put together a draft rewrite of this section that opens up with context, history and an explanation of the controversy. PearlSt82 (talk) 13:42, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[]
The lead should serve as a summary of the article. The risk of these dogs is a prominent piece of this article, it is non-compliant with NPOV and MOS to omit this. Please spare us the tedious challenges to factual information. Cavalryman It is inappropriate for you to unilateral dictate what the article should cover, especially when that's inconsistent with how we structure articles. We base information on what's been heavily reported in RS. It is wholly appropriate to include a conglomeration of reputational, statistical, scientific, and lay information that has been reported in scientific sources. Your opinion about what the article should focus on (the dogs as pets, what good pets they are or are not) is not what we can allow to guide content, sorry. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:12, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
I agree the dog attack risk section should be in the lede, but not as its being represented currently. There are many issues with these statements. Going one by one:
"the dog's proclivity to latching on while biting" - not in source cited, also not unique to pitbulls
"Each year, pit bulls are responsible for hundreds of bites on humans or attacks on other animals" - this is true for every dog breed and not unique to pit bulls
"There is a significant public and scholarly nature versus nurture debate over whether apparent apparent aggressive tendencies in pit bulls may be appropriately attributed to owners' care for the dog or inherent aggression" - misrepresentation of source - does not at all comment on any scholarly debate of nature vs nuture, but is just one professional dog training giving their opinion. There does not seem to be a debate in the scholarly community, especially if you are looking at sources like AVMA, Sacks, Duffy, etc, all seem to be consistent on that breed is a poor predicator of dog bite related fatalities, and that pit bulls bite on average roughly the same as other breeds. This is ironically bolstered by the Geographic source you posted, where one of the first things stated is "The first thing I did when I was consulting this book is reach out to the experts in the animal sciences to talk about what’s going on with these incidents and how best to prevent them. Fatalities are incredibly rare. In the U.S., we have 320 million people and between 77 and 83 million dogs. So your chance of being killed by any type of dog in the U.S. in any given year is one in 10 million"
"a practice that has continued despite being outlawed" - this is true for all forms of crime
"Numerous advocacy organizations have sprung up in defense of the breed, and the pit bull has been the focus of an intense "rebranding" effort in recent years to erase the stigma associated with the breed." - undue for lead and has the air of painting AVMA, ASPCA works as pr-efforts.
"Advocates dispute that the breed is intrinsically dangerous" - this is not the opinion of "advocates", but the AVMA, CDC, ASPCA and other professional organizations
I am not going to get baited into a debate about pit bulls, because that's what you're doing (I say this respectfully, this is not appropriate per WP:FORUM). You are making counter arguments to what reliable sources have offered, not disputing that these are factually accurate and heavily reported on.
1) The "locking mechanism" or latching on while biting is discussed in several paragraphs in the article. Not every claim in the lead needs to be sourced (this one is) and the sources are provided later.
2) "Whataboutism" is not appropriate for an article. That's called WP:SYNTH. Sources say that pit bulls are responsible for hundreds of attacks a year and that they are disproportionate compared to other breeds. It's not our job to play funny with the stats or compare it to other breeds. The comparisons in RS describe the role of pit bulls as disproportionate.
3) The nature vs nurture debate is indeed significant both as a matter of public discourse. Studies linked with pro-pitbull advocacy organizations are accordingly given less weight.
4) Professionals giving their opinion and who are published in reliable sources is exactly what we rely on.
I would suggest you review the prior GA reviews, which this article failed, and take that feedback into account, because this merry-go-round of making arguments about pit bulls and why facts are 'unfair' is what was repeatedly brought up as a reason the article didn't meet GA criteria. Bias or advocacy in favor of pit bulls and these types of counter arguments (example: calling statistics about pit bull deaths/maulings "unclear" while also presenting a precise graph of how many occurred was criticized in the last GA review) are a roadblock to improving this article that have been raised by each of the prior GA reviewers. Let's be careful not to continue that trend. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:59, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
These are not WP:FORUM arguments, but rather dealing with actionable changes in the article, and why I'm disputing these additions. Responding,
The article says "Pit bull-type dogs, like other terriers, hunting and bull-baiting breeds, can exhibit a bite, hold, and shake behavior and at times refuse to release" - again, this is not a behavior unique to pitbulls and not due for the lede
Sources do not say they are disproportionate compared to other breeds. From the AVMA literature review: "If you consider only the much smaller number of cases that resulted in very severe injuries or fatalities, pit bull-type dogs are more frequently identified. However this may relate to the popularity of the breed in the victim's community, reporting biases and the dog's treatment by its owner (e.g., use as fighting dogs21). It is worth noting that fatal dog attacks in some areas of Canada are attributed mainly to sled dogs and Siberian Huskies,56 presumably due to the regional prevalence of these breeds. See Table 1 for a summary of breed data related to bite injuries." and "Owners of pit bull-type dogs deal with a strong breed stigma,44 however controlled studies have not identified this breed group as disproportionately dangerous."
Again, these are not pro-pitbull advocacy organizations. They are veterinary professionals
You need to support your arguments with sources or reference to sources used in the article.
1) Sources note that pit bulls have a reputation for a "locking" or latching bite. Comparisons to other dogs not mentioned in sources are WP:SYNTH. And, yet again, this is discussed extensively in the article. Please do not rehash the same points without acknowledging obvious counter arguments.
2) The source you mentioned clearly alludes to the fact that pit bull attacks, based on recorded statistics, are disproportionate; other sources state this explicitly. What they are offering are theories as to why, not disputing the basic facts.
3) There are numerous pro-pit bull advocacy organizations that either commission studies or are linked with veterinary professionals through funding/other activism work. If it's RS, these sources are acceptable, but such commentary should not be given disproportionate weight. Neutral, mathematical statistics are preferable where possible.
4) Where are official AVMA or CDC statements that are supposedly being outweighed by the opinions of "a single professional?"
For the locking jaws section, sourcing is incredibly poor. dogsbite.org and a 35 year old sports illustrated article are not RS, the ASPCA source says nothing about their jaws, and the "Pit bulls for dummies" book as cited, explicitly says that locking jaws are a myth. Most of this section in the article can be removed.
It isn't wikipedia's job to report statistics - we report on secondary sources who analyze statistics, especially when bite statistics are notably problematic
Again, AVMA is not a pro-pit bull advocacy organization
AVMA sources are:
https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/literature-reviews/dog-bite-risk-and-prevention-role-breed (Owners of pit bull-type dogs deal with a strong breed stigma,44 however controlled studies have not identified this breed group as disproportionately dangerous. The pit bull type is particularly ambiguous as a "breed" encompassing a range of pedigree breeds, informal types and appearances that cannot be reliably identified. Visual determination of dog breed is known to not always be reliable.45 And witnesses may be predisposed to assume that a vicious dog is of this type.)
https://www.avma.org/resources/pet-owners/why-breed-specific-legislation-not-answer (It is not possible to calculate a bite rate for a breed or to compare rates between breeds because the data reported is often unreliable.) and (Breed popularity changes over time, making comparison of breed-specific bite rates unreliable. However a review of the research that attempts to quantify the relation between breed and bite risk finds the connection to be weak or absent, while responsible ownership variables such as socialization, neutering and proper containment of dogs are much more strongly indicated as important risk factors.)
AVSAB sources:
https://avsab.org/article-summary-behavioral-differences-among-breeds-of-domestic-dogs/ (Bite incident reports point to certain breeds (Pit Bull-type dogs and Rottweilers) as being responsible for more than 50% of bite-related fatalities (likely due at least in part to their larger size). Yet surveys of owners, veterinarians, and breed judges point to other breeds as being predominant in this category and their conclusions furthermore are inconsistent with each other. No direct experimental assessments of breed differences in this behavior have been published.)
https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Breed-Specific_Legislation-download-_8-18-14.pdf (Breed alone is not predictive of the risk of aggressive behavior. Dogs and owners must be evaluated individually.) and (7 A cross-Canada study published in 2013 also concluded that there was no difference in the dog bite incidences between municipalities with and without breed-specific legislation.)
CDC 2000 position described on BSL data: https://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-policy-and-position-statements/position-statement-breed-specific-legislation (The CDC strongly recommends against breed-specific laws in its oft-cited study of fatal dog attacks, noting that data collection related to bites by breed is fraught with potential sources of error (Sacks et al., 2000). Specifically, the authors of this and other studies cite the inherent difficulties in breed identification (especially among mixed-breed dogs) and in calculating a breed’s bite rate given the lack of consistent data on breed population and the actual number of bites occurring in a community, especially when the injury is not deemed serious enough to require treatment in an emergency room (Sacks et al., 2000; AVMA, 2001; Collier, 2006). Supporting the concern regarding identification, a recent study noted a significant discrepancy between visual determination of breed and DNA determination of breed (Voith et al., 2009).)
It isn't Wikipedia's job to report statistics This is a flat out wrong. This is like saying we don't include photos on Wikipedia. Statistics are secondary sources; they are compiled and assembled by researchers and then presented. Commentary on those statistics also requires a secondary source. No OR material is presented in the article.
You are citing clearly biased sources. "Disproportionately dangerous" and "responsible for a disproportionate number of bites and attacks" are not the same thing. The former is an interpretive statement. The latter is a factual record.
On the one hand, you cite the age of an article as evidence of unreliability (not a definitive measure for RS whatsoever) yet you also cite a 20-year-old CDC study. This is not consistent or objective to the degree that's needed to improve this page.
I'm not going to keep responding to these point by point, but address your edits. You should not have removed the bit about the pit bull biting behavior. This is a section addressed with numerous sources in the body of the article, and the lead must make not of it. Prominent controversies must be included per MOS:LEAD. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 15:50, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
AVMA, AVSAB, APSCA and CDC are not biased sources. Content sourced to non-RS like dogsbite.org and a 35 year old Sports Illustrated article should be removed. PearlSt82 (talk) 15:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Likewise, dogbite statistics are fraught with error, as commented on by multiple reliable sources, some of which I've posted above. PearlSt82 (talk) 15:53, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Dogsbite.org is obviously an opinionated source, but it is not one that is unreliable for that reason, and note that Dogsbite.org only sources objective statistics, not commentary. Sources like the CDC, AVSAB, and ASPCA are vulnerable to bias as with any other source, and this is particularly acute where they use commentary and language echoing sentiments of advocacy organizations and omit or fail to note objective facts against the arguments they make. And let's be clear: these organizations are engaged in advocacy in the sources you linked, not objective analysis. They are arguing for a conclusion.
You also keep harping on a 35-year-old SI article. I don't know why this is worthy of extensive discussion. The same points are made in more recent articles, see the NYT, Forbes, etc. Harping on a single source that echoes the same sentiments in other sources to attack a set of commentary is misleading.
The above sources do not argue "flaws" in the data. The data is what it is: data. The sources make arguments about how to properly interpret that data with regards to subjective characterizations like dangerousness. Again, please read the past GA reviews and see why these arguments mirror the same problematic lines of thinking that GA reviewers were critical of and why this article has failed to meet those criteria despite multiple attempts. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 16:04, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Kindly stop removing sourced material about reputational, statistical, or other information in the lead that is also cited within the article. The lead must mention prominent controversies and summarize the article as a whole: that does not mean picking and choosing information selectively and juxtaposing negative statements with positive ones. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 16:08, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
I can't believe you're seriously trying to argue that the CDC, AVSAB, and ASPCA are biased, but dogsbite.org, a nakedly pro-BSL advocacy group, whose sole owner and operator has no professional experience in veterinary medicine or animal behavior, is fine. Likewise, Sports Illustrated is not a reliable source for anything in this article, especially when recent scholarship contradicts their claims. PearlSt82 (talk) 17:02, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
And likewise, we don't report raw data. Per WP:MEDRS, we report the conclusions of reliable organizations who analyze the data - in the case, it would be the veterinary and animal behavior experts, the AVMA and AVSAB. PearlSt82 (talk) 17:09, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
All sources are opinionated, and those potential biases qualify how those sources can be used. I agree with you that Dogsbite.org is an advocacy organization. If you'll note, I did not cite them for any interpretive statements, arguments, or commentary: they are only used for compilations of statistics or data, and other information such as which jurisdictions in the U.S. have anti-pit bull regulations. The CDC, AVSAB, and ASPCA deserve to be treated distinctly. The ASPCA is an animal advocacy group that seeks to adopt out animals including pit bulls. There are tens of thousands of pit bulls in ASPCA shelters that that organization is seeking to put out for adoption. They have a business interest against certain views on pitbulls. The AVSAB's statements reveal an obvious bias—here, they parrot arguments from pro-pitbull advocacy organizations and dismiss data. This organization is dedicated to making policy arguments about pit bulls and does not dispute data that shows these dogs disproportionately bite people. This is obviously an opinionated organization, and that's fine, but we cannot mask their position because of a "neural sounding" name. Finally, the last time the CDC collected info on dog bites based on breed, it showed that pit bulls were responsible for the vast majority of such bites. See here. The CDC no longer collects such information, so again, there is no position from the CDC that directly disputes or disproves these stats. So we have an organization that actually collects data and provides evidence as to that methodology, and we have competing organizations that refuse to acknowledge or collect that same data yet make arguments that directly relate to it. It is incorrect to say that Wikipedia presents "raw data." Data, statistics, and percentages compiled by secondary sources and presented by those sources do not need to be accompanied by commentary for inclusion. We certainly could include the commentary by those organizations, but we don't have to. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:18, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
The problem with statistics as presented by dogsbite.org and others is that dog bite statistics are fraught with error. This is why the CDC doesn't collect this data. Likewise, the unreliability of dog bite statistics have been commented on by multiple reliable sources. If you need such sourcing, I will be happy to provide, as above. As such, we shouldn't present statistics and data as-is without relying on interpretative secondary sourcing.
The AVSAB is a membership organization of animal behaviorists, whose mission statement is: "AVSAB’s mission is to share accurate, science-based education and information to their membership. AVSAB also periodically publishes membership consensus position statements to share with the entire veterinary profession and to the public on common behavior controversies and practices.". Since Wikipedia policy, per WP:MEDRS, "position statements from national or international expert bodies" should be valued the highest. Animal behavior and veterinary anatomy is biomedical information which falls under this, per WP:Biomedical_information. The leading professional membership organization of animal behaviorists clearly falls under this category. PearlSt82 (talk) 17:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Even national "expert organizations" are subject to bias, and the notion that we can make conclusions about vague notions of "dangerousness" by breed yet documenting bites and incidents per breed on an annual basis is inherently flawed is contradictory and ridiculous. Show me where any of these organizations directly dispute the disproportionate number of pit bull bites relative to population and number of dog bites recorded in general. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:50, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
From the AVMA: Dog bite statistics are not really statistics, and they do not give an accurate picture of dogs that bite.7 Invariably the numbers will show that dogs from popular, large breeds are a problem. This should be expected because big dogs can physically do more damage if they do bite and any popular breed has more individuals that could bite. Dogs from small breeds also bite and are capable of causing severe injury. There are several reasons why it is not possible to calculate a bite rate for a breed or to compare rates between breeds. First, the breed of the biting dog may not be accurately recorded, and mixed-breed dogs are commonly described as if they were purebreds. Second, the actual number of bites that occur in a community is not known, especially if they did not result in serious injury. Third, the number of dogs of a particular breed or combination of breeds in a community is not known because it is rare for all dogs in a community to be licensed and existing licensing data is then incomplete.7 Breed data likely vary between communities, states, or regions, and can even vary between neighborhoods within a community.
From the ASPCA: As certain breeds are regulated, individuals who exploit aggression in dogs are likely to turn to other, unregulated breeds (Sacks et al., 2000). Following enactment of a 1990 pit bull ban in Winnipeg, Canada, Rottweiler bites increased dramatically (Winnipeg reported bite statistics, 1984-2003). By contrast, following Winnipeg’s enactment of a breed-neutral dangerous dog law in 2000, pit bull bites remained low and both Rottweiler and total dog bites decreased significantly (Winnipeg reported bite statistics, 1984-2003).
From the ASVAB: A study published in 2009 proved that visual ID was usually inaccurate compared to canine genetic testing.20 The breed identification assigned at adoption was compared to DNA test results for those dogs, and not surprisingly the visual ID matched the predominant breed proven in DNA analysis in only 25% of the dogs.20 Follow-up studies confirm that visual breed identification is highly inconsistent and inaccurate. and A study of dog bites in Spain between 1990- 1995 (before the 2000 Dangerous Dog Act was enacted) compared to another study conducted from 2000-2004 revealed no difference in the distribution of dog breeds involved in bites; in fact, fewer than 4% of the bites in each of the time periods were caused by dogs on the dangerous breeds ban list.7 In Winnipeg, Manitoba, there was no difference in the incidence of dog bite injury hospitalizations prior to or following the enactment of BSL.27 A cross-Canada study published in 2013 also concluded that there was no difference in the dog bite incidences between municipalities with and without breed-specific legislation.28 In 2008, the Dutch government repealed a 15-year nationwide ban on pit bulls after a government study showed it to be ineffective.6,29 Following the change, dogs were to be judged based on their behavior, not breed, size or appearance. A similar list of “dangerous breeds” was repealed in Italy in 2009 with the focus changing to responsible ownership.30 Breed-specific legislation effectiveness is also under scrutiny in the United States. Denver enacted BSL in 1989. Denver has since experienced a higher rate of hospitalizations as a result of dog bite related injuries than breed-neutral Boulder, CO.31 In May 2012, the state of Ohio passed legislation removing pit bulls from its definition of vicious dogs, and made other changes to put the focus on dangerous dogs (irrespective of breed or mix) and responsible ownership.32
These sources make it clear that there are serious errors with collecting dog bite stats by breed, and thus we should not be reporting them as is. Additionally, these sources demonstrate dog prevalence by breed in statistics is dependent on how many dogs are in the area - areas which have been noted by these sources to adopt BSL, and thus having no pit bulls, are not seeing a reduction in hospitalization for dog bites. PearlSt82 (talk) 18:02, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
No, these sources make arguments from a biased perspective. "BSL" is a derogatory term for bans on pit bulls that is used and propagated by advocacy groups. The arguments above show that these organizations are biased—one the one hand, they are stringently arguing that basic statistics on breeds should not be collected, and on the other, they make arguments that dangerousness can be assessed by breed and that pit bulls are "not" a dangerous breed. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
This reads a lot of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. These are the leading veterinary and animal behavior organizations, and any notion they're somehow biased for pit bulls against proper public safety measures is ridiculous. "BSL" is hardly a derogatory term, but rather an accurate descriptor of legislation banning certain breeds of dogs. Furthermore - they are not making an argument that dangerousness can be assessed by breed, they are making the argument that breed statistics are fraught with error, and that in areas that have enacted BSL and seen drastic reductions in pit bull numbers, the same areas are not seeing a reduction in overall dog bites and hospitalizations, which demonstrates that pit bulls do not bite or hospitalize disproportionately. PearlSt82 (talk) 18:26, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
No, it's a matter of properly distinguishing between advocacy and not accepting as fact policy arguments by organizations with a vested interest in particular outcomes. Animal advocacy groups and veterinary groups are almost certain to take a more sympathetic approach towards pit bull legislation. Public safety-minded experts, on the other hand, are likely to take a different approach. You claim that basic statistics are "fraught with error" without reference to any individual source's methodology, yet accept without question studies that purport to show individual breeds are "not dangerous." This is a baffling contradiction and is not reconciled by any of the points you have made above. The views you cited may appropriately be included, but not to the exclusion of contrary information or arguments. Mainstream sources also are the best in documenting public perceptions. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Veterinary groups do not have a vested interest in any particular outcome but one that is science-based. Breed-specific legislation has shown not to be effective, or rooted in any of the science, which you seem to be ignoring, claiming it is biased. One of the most recent, comprehensive studies on dog bite related fatalities, "Co-occurrence of potentially preventable factors in 256 dog bite–related fatalities in the United States (2000–2009), pubished in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, states "Most DBRFs were characterized by coincident, preventable factors; breed was not one of these. Study results supported previous recommendations for multifactorial approaches, instead of single-factor solutions such as breed-specific legislation, for dog bite prevention." - there is no contradiction here, in that the animal behavior literature and controlled studies, they demonstrate that human behavior and socio-economic factors are the problems with aggression, not breed. Fatalities are the most serious form of dog bite, and likely the incidents which have the most data, and in this comprehensive study, it was found that Major co-occurrent factors for the 256 DBRFs included absence of an able-bodied person to intervene (n = 223 [87.1%]), incidental or no familiar relationship of victims with dogs (218 [85.2%]), owner failure to neuter dogs (216 [84.4%]), compromised ability of victims to interact appropriately with dogs (198 [77.4%]), dogs kept isolated from regular positive human interactions versus family dogs (195 [76.2%]), owners’ prior mismanagement of dogs (96 [37.5%]), and owners’ history of abuse or neglect of dogs (54 [21.1%]). Four or more of these factors co-occurred in 206 (80.5%) deaths. For 401 dogs described in various media accounts, reported breed differed for 124 (30.9%); for 346 dogs with both media and animal control breed reports, breed differed for 139 (40.2%). Valid breed determination was possible for only 45 (17.6%) DBRFs; 20 breeds, including 2 known mixes, were identified. - which demonstrates that breed misidentification is a major issue in statistic methodology, and that other factors weigh more heavily than breed. PearlSt82 (talk) 18:43, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
(Arbitrary break for ease of inserting future edits)
Been away from my computer for hours; just read this exchange; here are my comments/observations:
C-BARQ is based on owner-surveys, so that's not very scientific.
Aggression is less of an issue with pit bulls than dangerousness; no one really cares about Chihuahuas biting you.
CDC, Lockwood and Sacks haven't written a study in 20 years, which makes their studies somewhat obsolete (at least a secondary choice if there is newer information that clarifies).
Cavalryman, my experience with reworking ledes is that its better to tackle all the sections of an article first, and then summarize it when you're done; starting with the lede is rarely a good idea.
I would not use Dickey's book because she is not a dog expert, nor a pit bull expert, has written only one book (which appears commissioned), and the book's content has been controversial; I would object to use of Dickey as a main source for this article.
Wikieditor19920 is correct that yes it would be appropriate to include "a conglomeration of reputational, statistical, scientific, and lay information" which will help to balance the POV of this article.
A few editors have been hindering the improvement of this article for a long time (see edit history). I have watched this article be "policed" with a heavy hand where almost all edits have been reverted for a very long time. There are occasional attempts to introduce information and, when reverted by the policers, new complaints are added to the Talk page. See the Talk page archives to see how often other editors have complained about the slanted POV of this article.
Wikieditor19920 seems to have done some homework about GA reviews. If WE19920 says that we're going down the same old path that has lead to non-resolution of the persistent POV-complaints about this article, then we should look at how we can break through the barriers.
There may not be a formal organization or lobby called "the pit bull lobby", but the term has often enough been used to describe the organized efforts to sway public opinion and legislation about pit bulls using arguments that are pro-pit bull and pit bull apologizing/excusing, and using concerted effort to "PR" pit bulls while undermining their detractors. This includes efforts to commission studies and sway opinion/positions of other organizations (such as AVMA, ASPCA, etc.), and using such tools as American Bar Association resolution 100 signed by the "pit bull lobby's" leading legal advocate, Ledy VanKavage. Is that not a lobby? (I'm surprised there is no Wikipedia article for VanKavage, Animal Farm Foundation, National Canine Research Council, or "pit bull lobby" since these are all notable enough to have been included in Wikipedia.)
PearlSt82's POV about pit bulls (repeatedly expressed on Talk pages) include: pit bulls are no different than any other dog, pit bulls bite no more frequently than any other dog and their bites are no different, pit bulls are no more aggressive than any other dog, pit bulls cannot be reliably identified, fatal dog attacks should not be covered in Wikipedia without first pointing out that such fatalities are rare, and any bite or fatality caused by a pit bull must have some reason that doesn't include genetics or inherent breed behaviors. These positions ARE the positions of the pit bull lobby, and they fly in the teeth of contemporary news coverage, contemporary studies, and statistics for the last 20 years. It doesn't serve well the readers of Wikipedia to present such a one-sided opinion of pit bulls when there is so much other reliable source written about the dangerousness of pit bulls. Where is that coverage in Wikipedia? Nowhere. It's not a FRINGE idea that should be suppressed from Wikipedia.
PearlSt82 has used three tools to great effect: a vast library of pro pit bull studies and writings, a litigator-style for argumentation on Wikipedia talk pages, and an unusual viewpoint about MEDRS and how it relates to the inclusion/exclusion of studies with respect to pit bull bites. All three combined have resulted in the exclusion of all studies and content not adhering to PearlSt82's POV. Again, this is not serving the readership of Wikipedia.
If we are to present a NPOV, then one cannot populate an article with only one side of the debate; and there surely is a debate going on in contemporary writings. NPOV dictates that both sides should be covered according to their coverage (DUEWEIGHT) and not based on the viewpoints of only one side of the debate.
Only when the neutrality/POV complaints stop on the Talk page will you know if your revisions have succeeded in balancing the article. Up until now, we have failed to present a NPOV in this article.
I'm not sure if claiming the AVMA, AVSAB etc being part of a shadowy "pit bull lobby" holds any weight - this kind of conspiratorial mindset toes very closely to WP:FRINGE. As for WP:MEDRS, veterinary information, or epidemiology when sourced from medical journals, clearly applies. As for any supposed POV, all of my edits have been reliably sourced, and conducted in accordance with (my reading) of Wikipedia policy. Pretty much all the sources in favor of a pro-BSL position come from the popular press and extensively cite statistics from dogsbite.org - which as noted previously, are problematic. I'm not sure of any veterinary body or animal behavior body, or any high level secondary literature reviews which would support "the other side", which in my opinion, would be giving the issue WP:FALSEBALANCE. PearlSt82 (talk) 19:15, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Also, thank you for posting that American Bar Association source, as it shows that the leading legal body of the United States passed a resolution that demonstrates BSL as ineffective, as it both agrees with, and provides another dimension into what the veterinary sources are saying. PearlSt82 (talk) 19:27, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
The bar association resolution has been used with your same arguments to pressure other organizations to take a position that sides with the pro pit bull lobby. Lead by VanKavage, it IS the primary tool used to bully everyone and everyorg to toe a line and not seem so out of synch with the people. It does NOT, however, represent the majority legal viewpoint, and the ABA is its own advocacy organization. Its resolutions do NOT, as you would like to ascribe, hold any legal weight in a court of law, nor should it on Wikipedia. Normal Op (talk) 19:35, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
My problem is with the ridiculous argument that a) statistics are not allowed on Wikipedia (they are) and b) statistics that categorize based on breed are unacceptable when measuring bites and attacks (see here for another study based on hospital visits by children, pit bulls responsible for 50%) yet the same categorization is acceptable when it is used to promote the conclusion that pit bulls are not "dangerous." The reason these sources should be viewed with skepticism is their obviously circular arguments, where: 1) pit bulls are not dangerous, but we're not going to look at statistics on number of bites attacks or other incidents, and any such data should be ignored 2) even if pit bulls are dangerous, it's not because of why people think (commence nurture argument/abuse/blame owner/neglect/unsupervised children, etc.). It's ridiculous, and some of the studies put out by supposedly prestigious institutions are of such embarrassingly poor quality that it is worth qualifying them in some respect with alternative niche sources that offer a more balanced/rigorous view. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:35, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Also, I do not think we are here to argue whether or not pit bull bans (Breed Specific Legislation or "BSL" as another user has called them, and which i will note is a term used by advocacy orgs) are effective in preventing pit bull attacks or dog attacks. That information can be included, but it's also key to include background as to why they are contemplated and have become a contentious issue, and that has to do with a) the reputation of the pit bull dog and b) statistics showing the # of incidents these dogs are involved in with people. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
As sources repeatedly show, the issue is more complicated than just breed/genetics and nuance from veterinary and behavioral professionals is required to analyze statistics and interpret studies as to not come to erroneous conclusions. This is the core of WP:MEDRS. PearlSt82 (talk) 20:42, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
No, the core of MEDRS is a cover-your-butt policy to ensure that people don't get hurt by bad medical advice, and Wikipedia doesn't get sued. Both worthy causes, but hardly a valid barrier to ensure no third-party dog bite data or conclusions get into Wikipedia. Normal Op (talk) 21:08, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Wikipedia:Biomedical_information says WP:MEDRS applies to non-humans. It especially applies when you try to use a primary study out of a medical journal, as the one posted above. It also covers "Health effects" to humans - the wording here is Whether human health is affected by a particular substance, practice, environmental factor, or other variable; what those effects are, how and when they occur or how likely they are, at what levels they occur, and to what degree; whether the effects (or the original variables) are safe, nutritious, toxic, beneficial, detrimental, etc.. Dog bites, especially fatalities, fall under this. PearlSt82 (talk) 21:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
I agree, but the effect on humans is a distinct subject from the behaviorial tendencies of the breed. Statistics on dog bites by breed often come from peer reviewed studies, which can be used in the article. Dogsbite.org is mostly a compilation of peer-reviewed material. This,this, and this, and this all comment on the frequency and severity of pit bull bites. These are wholly appropriate per WP:MEDRS. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 21:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Dogsbite.org is not a RS - its a self-published source by someone who has no credentials in the field. Its a clear advocacy for BSL and has their methodology has been disputed by the AVSAB. Those medical articles are all primary studies, and as far as I know none of those medical articles discuss their methodology for how they identified breed. When the above JAVMA review notes that in only 17.6% cases of DBRF was breed reliability identified, how is this issue resolved with much broader trauma intake? This is why secondary analysis is so important, as they should be the ones analyzing primary studies, not in Wikipedia's voice. PearlSt82 (talk) 21:49, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
These were not "primary studies." These are peer-reviewed, published sources that drew conclusions based on data and research, and offered those conclusions and findings in these papers. If you have a specific criticism of any one of these sources, you are free to raise it. A broad-based criticism of any study that categorizes by breed but reaches the "wrong" conclusion (that pit bulls are responsible for a disproportionate number of bites) yet permits inclusion of studies that make the same claims to breed identification, but reach the opposite conclusion, is unacceptable. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 22:14, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
These are definitely primary studies - data from a single intake point. Regarding conclusions in the literature - I think it should be noted there are roughly two categories of academic/professional sources. The first, from veterinary/animal behaviorists, include numerous primary studies, and a few literature reviews and position statements. I have already posted many here, so there is no need to revisit them in detail - but the trend going through all of them is that they state that there are inherent difficulties in capturing reliable dog bite statistics, and that dog-human aggression is not breed related, but linked to other factors, especially in severe/fatal incidents. The second group of sources, includes several dozen primary studies from medical journals, of which you have posted a couple. These are almost always raw statistics and don't raise any of the concerns of the veterinary sources. Some of them (Bini and Cohn being one) will go as far to recommend legislation. As far as I know, there are no literature reviews or position statements coming from medical bodies in a similar fashion that there is with the veterinary sources. It is for these reasons - both that veterinary sources are closer professionally to the issues at hand (animal behavior, aggression), and they incorporate more secondary literature reviews and position statements, that I am suggesting they be given more weight than the primary medical studies and raw statistics. PearlSt82 (talk) 23:05, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
For what it is worth, this is one of the most constructive debates I have ever had the pleasure to witness on a Wikipedia dog-related talk page. The focus on the issues - without personal remarks - by committed and articulate editors is a credit to all involved. William Harristalk22:19, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Thanks, though, I think we might be at the point where additional editors comments would be welcome to try to resolve some of these issues. PearlSt82 (talk) 23:06, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
The 17.6% comes from the Voith study "Comparison of Visual and DNA Breed Identification of Dogs and Inter-Observer Reliability" (2013) whose sampling of dogs was twenty (20). Twenty! None of the dogs were purebred; half of the dogs were a mixture of 4 to 6 dog breeds (per DNA testing); all dogs DNA-tested with no higher than 25% of any single breed (except for 1 which tested 50%/25%/other). The dogs were presented through media (not in person) to 900 persons who were queried with basically two questions: (1) "Do you think this dog is probably a purebred?" (Any response other than "No" was counted as a fail!), and (2) "What do you think is the most predominant breed (and second most predominant breed)"? I'm shocked that the hit-rate was as high as 17.6%. And this 'caca' has been promulgated as breed identification gospel ever since. Normal Op (talk) 23:15, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
I think the core argument here is that data about the number of dog bites per year by this breed are unacceptable, yet these circular, illogical studies from renowned veterinary institutions are. This is ridiculous. We need to a) account for the bias in these organizations, which have taken clear policy positions against legislating pit bulls and then built a portfolio of "studies" to support that conclusion, and b) treat studies that refuse to look at crucial sets of data yet draw conclusions in the absence of it with a healthy degree of skepticism. The studies above are absolutely secondary sources, they are not "raw data." Raw data would be if I went to the hospital myself and asked for their ER stats on pit bull attacks. Any source that researches and compiles data, and then analyzes it and offers conclusions/recommendations is a secondary source. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 23:23, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
I agree. Further, the assertion that veterinarian publishings (writing about their theories on dog behavior) are more important, significant and reliable than medical professional publishings (which have universally reported that pit bull type dogs create the majority of serious injuries and deaths of all dog bites they see) based on the technicality of secondary-versus-primary studies or beholden to the 17.6% faulty conclusion is ridiculous, and has lead us to the too-oft repeated discussions about not neutral POV content in Wikipedia. Normal Op (talk) 23:28, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Disagreed again these are secondary sources. The three medical studies you posted - "Characteristics of 1616 Consecutive Dog Bite Injuries at a Single Institution" in the title and abstract, its stats from a single institution. "Dog bites of the head and neck: an evaluation of a common pediatric trauma and associated treatment" - also a single institution. "Ocular Trauma From Dog Bites: Characterization, Associations, and Treatment Patterns at a Regional Level I Trauma Center Over 11 Years" - single institution. These don't speak to broader trends applicable to the entire breed, but rather just give you a data point at one particular place at one point in time. As veterinary sources note, in areas with BSL where pit bull populations are near zero, overall dog bite hospital intake numbers do not change with the shift in dog population. PearlSt82 (talk) 23:30, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Also, from WP:MEDRS: A primary source in medicine is one in which the authors directly participated in the research or documented their personal experiences. They examined the patients, injected the rats, ran the experiments, or at least supervised those who did. Many, but not all, papers published in medical journals are primary sources for facts about the research and discoveries made. and A secondary source in medicine summarizes one or more primary or secondary sources, usually to provide an overview of current understanding of the topic, to make recommendations, or to combine results of several studies. Examples include literature reviews or systematic reviews found in medical journals, specialist academic or professional books, and medical guidelines or position statements published by major health organizations.. These medical journal sources are clearly primary sources per this definition. PearlSt82 (talk) 23:33, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Mea culpa; there is 17.6% in Voith, too. Someone, please, make another arbitrary section break to break up walls of text. Normal Op (talk) 00:28, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Statistics on dog bites do not need to be limited to misleading studies by a limited number of organizations with an advocacy agenda. Here is yet another secondary publication confirming the disproportionate role that pit bulls play in dog attacks. These are facts--not the type of medical conjecture that calls for a peer-reviewed study per WP:MEDRS. Of note, NONE of the studies that the above user linked dispute these facts--they merely attempt to explain them away or outright ignore them, instead using vague notions of "aggression" and "dangerousness" based on definitions that would confuse most laypersons. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 01:42, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[]
"What advocates call breed-specific legislation"
There is absolutely no sourcing for the idea that "breed-specific legislation" is a derogatory term used by advocates. This is pure OR. Even dogsbite.org, the most prominent BSL advocates, refer to it as "BSL" and "Breed-specific legislation". If there are no sources posted for the notion that this is an advocacy term, this should be removed. PearlSt82 (talk) 07:08, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[]
OR refers to content in articles, not discussions on talk pages. We are allowed to discuss sources and possible issues including bias or language. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 13:25, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Yes, and right now, the lede reads "A number of states in the United States have banned what advocates call breed-specific legislation, or legislation against pit bulls" - there is no sourcing for the idea that BSL is an "advocate" term. PearlSt82 (talk) 14:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Link for documentary describing how the term "BSL" was popularized by advocates. It suggests that legislation against pit bulls is over-broad or more far-reaching than it is. It also seems to have some connotation of "discrimination," as if animals can be likened to people. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 16:29, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[]
A sensationalist tv show is hardly a reliable source, especially for such a claim in the lede. Breed-specific legislation is absolutely the common term for such laws, per WP:COMMONNAME, and it is how it is referred to by its proponents. I don't see how this is at all controversial? PearlSt82 (talk) 17:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Is "sensationalist" a label for any documentary or piece of journalism on television? It's from one of the investigative arms of CBC News. I think that we should be cautious using this term. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:03, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[]
It's possible that "breed specific legislation" was indeed a derogatory term coined by the opposition to "pit bull bans" (which have a lengthy history in the USA) or maybe it was the banning side's idea to encompass other breeds and soften the term from "pit bull ban" to "breed specific legislation". I surely don't know and haven't come across any sources describing the origin of the term. Perhaps it is similar to the term "ag-gag" which was coined by the animal rights people as a derogatory term for legislation banning the lying to obtain employment, followed by extended periods of undercover filming, in order to create horrific heavily-edited footage (by organizations such as PETA) in order to get entire industries condemned in the "Court of public opinion", rather than reporting local and/or individual abuses to the appropriate authorities to get abusive behavior investigated by authorities (our law enforcement and judicial systems). But even if the origins of "BSL" or "ag-gag" come from one side or the other, it doesn't change the fact that both terms are likely here to stay and are now broadly used by both sides of the debates.
Then there is term "pit bull lobby". Likely coined by those opposed to keeping pit bulls as pets in residential settings to describe the large organizations who promote and lobby for the right to keep pit bulls as pets. I'm not sure if there are enough reliable sources that describe/discuss the term "pit bull lobby" to make a Wikipedia page out of it, but it really ought to be mentioned somewhere in Wikipedia because it is ubiquitous in its use in the English speaking world and certainly doesn't exist in any dictionary (because it's an esoteric term, not a general word). It could, perhaps, be covered by a section in the Pit bull article, because it is most closely tied to the pit bull subject (less than it is tied to, say, the Breed-specific legislation subject). In the film, at 38:40, Ledy VanKavage is called a lobbyist. The term "lobbying" has a known definition, and the activities of VanKavage's BSL-pre-emption activities are indeed "lobbying" as described in Lobbying in the United States. I don't know why PearlSt82 keeps denying a "pit bull lobby" exists (using the phrase "shadowy pit bull lobby"); VanKavage has been pretty open about what she does. I doubt AVMA & AVSAB have ever been lumped in with said lobby, as suggested by PearlSt82, but they have certainly been affected by the lobby's efforts. That IS, after all, what lobbies do.
I broadened this section/discussion to include the lobby phrase to point out that these are both topics "about pit bulls" that are repeatedly coming up and oft-discussed in media and other reliable sources, and yet are not covered (or covered neutrally) in the Wikipedia pit bull article. We have a litany of complaints on the Talk page about how this article fails NPOV and is biased, and is NOT covering these topics, and the edit history shows repeated attempts to keep the article the way it is with no intervention permitted by "outside" wiki editors.
Several editors seem to be on a roll to edit this article right now, and I think it's quite possible that the unbalanced POV issues can be cleaned up. Normal Op (talk) 23:07, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Sourcing is not there for "pit bull lobby", unless you can present something beyond the Dickey book which mentions it in a dismissive conspiratorial tone. I know you have indicated that you feel the Dickey book is not RS, but I suspect others would disagree, and at the very least something with equal weight needs to be posted for confirmation/use of this language. Otherwise it has NPOV/OR all over it. PearlSt82 (talk) 12:20, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
There is undoubtedly a lobbying effort underway for pitbulls, whether or not it is called the "Pit bull lobby." The lead notes this, and sources it to the NYT. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 16:17, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
The sentence in the lead is WP:UNDUE and inaccurate. The NYT article cited is incredibly brief and discusses only The Dodo series "Pittie Nation" and the personal advocacy of stand-up comedian Rebecca Corry. The two sources cited in the body for any kind of 'rebranding effort' are an effort undertaken by San Francisco in 1997 and one in New York in 2004, both of which are described as sources as incredibly short-lived. This can hardly be described as an 'intense "rebranding" effort', and as such reads inaccurate NPOV language. The lede is to serve as a summary of the most important parts of the body of the article, and this element is a such a minor point that it is UNDUE for the lede. PearlSt82 (talk) 16:44, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
And looking at the 2004 effort closer, the proposal was instantly shot down by the director of NYC animal control - so what you have is one brief effort in SF in 1997, one failed effort in NYC in 2004, a series by the Dodo and personal activism of a stand-up comedian. This is absolutely WP:UNDUE for the lede, especially as written as an "intense" rebranding effort. PearlSt82 (talk) 16:55, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Furthermore, a google search for the terms "pit bull lobby" brings up a bunch of conspiratorial-minded sites like this one. Nothing that remotely reaches the level of RS in the first four pages of results. PearlSt82 (talk) 19:55, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Citywatchla and Forbes contributor pieces
Neither of these sources are RS - citywatchla has no information posted about themselves online and don't meet WP:NEWSORG, and searching WP:RSN, there is strong consensus that Forbes contributor pieces, of which this is one, are not reliable. Previous RSN discussions include on this issue: 1, 2, 3, 4. PearlSt82 (talk) 20:43, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
CityWatchLA does indeed have information about their organization, on their About page, which I found as the second result from googling "what is citywatchla.com". Normal Op (talk) 21:31, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Thanks again for this, for some reason they do not link to this page on their home page, or at least, I was unable to find it. It appears to be a web-only news outlet with a small reach, and doesn't meet WP:NEWSORG, especially for statements of fact. PearlSt82 (talk) 21:39, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
I wouldn't call those numbers "small" (90,000+ opt-in subscribers, 610,457 hits per day and 65,000 page views per day), and I'm not sure 'size matters' for RS anyway. Editorial oversight, expertise, professionalism, etc. would count more than size. It wouldn't purport to compete with "national" organizations and since it is local/regional its numbers would ordinarily be smaller than a national operation. Normal Op (talk) 21:46, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
From that page "CityWatchLA is an opinion publication based on the opinions of its writers and contributors. " - I think this pretty much seals it as non-RS. PearlSt82 (talk) 21:54, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Articles mentioning "pit bull lobby"
Having been challenged to find sources for the term "pit bull lobby", I did a google search today, using google's "news" tab only, and put together the below list. I have separated out the levels of article. The first section are newspapers or news agencies (online sources, of course). These were articles that did NOT indicate they were opinion pieces or editorials. The next section is for opinion pieces; some of the authors are regular contributors to newspapers. Then follows the advocacy publications. Since the term "pit bull lobby" is considered derogatory by pit bull advocates, and since it is not a formal term that has been "owned" by the them, it is highly unlikely that you will find any author using the term except those who are opposed to lobbying efforts on behalf of pit bulls. Sorry, PearlSt82, I know you won't like a single one of these articles, but to help with "the call for NPOV", I felt compelled to put together this list. Wikipedia guidelines specifically state that a source does not need to be unbiased (WP:BIASEDSOURCES) and in fact may be useful for helping to create NPOV in an article. Per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, it is possible that some of the sources considered less-reliable might be valuable "in context", such as a definition of what is considered the "pit bull lobby" or the scope of which organizations are considered part of said lobby. If anything, this list should at least prove that the term (a) is not uncommon, (b) has been used for at least 15 years, and (c) isn't likely to go away.
These are articles that do NOT indicate they are opinion pieces, etc.
westword.com (2020) Westword, a Denver paper // term used by Denver Councilwoman in a quote to the paper: "Our office has received plenty of what I would deem to be inappropriate outreach from both sides of the pit bull lobby this week," Sawyer divulged in another message. "And none of it sways me either way. As I have said, the only thing that would change my vote would be a change in facts."
pilotonline.com (2017) The Virginian-Pilot, a newspaper // "I know, I know, the pit bull lobby will blame the breeder, the shelter, the owners, the dead woman." // "Don't let the pugnacious pit bull lobby tell you nothing can be done."
citywatchla.com (2018) A Los Angeles newspaper // Refers to BFAS's lobbying
citywatchla.com (2018) // "Since the Michael Vick dog fighting arrest, the Pit Bull lobby is insisting it is the ideal pet and "nanny dog," ignoring increasing reports of maiming and killing humans, including helpless infants."
theprovince.com (2015) The Province, a Canadian paper // Uses the phrase "camp": "The multimillion-dollar-funded pit bull advocacy camp is very efficient. As soon as an article or interview perceived to be maligning the reputation of the pit bull has been posted to the internet, the troops are gathered to launch their assault. Nancy Grace, Judge Judy, Dr. Laura and many radio hosts, journalists and TV personalities have experienced it first hand."
heavy.com (2017) online news // "Kelley examines both sides of the pit bull “debate” and also speaks extensively with Daxton’s babysitter, Susan Iwicki, as well as a legislative attorney and pit bull lobbyist for Best Friends Animal Society, Ledy VanKavage."
theprovince.com (2015) // "and that is the fault of the unscrupulous pit bull lobby promoting them as safe family pets when they are not" // "It’s time we stop being intimidated by this vocal minority and the multimillion-dollar funded pit bull lobby group and start demanding public safety."
theprovince.com (2016) // "This claim, along with loads of others presented by the influential pit bull lobby, is a complete lie. " // "In the eight years since the pit bull lobby ramped up their promotion and propaganda of the “misunderstood breed,” there’s been an 830 per cent increase in disfiguring and fatal attacks on humans in the U.S. and Canada. In 2007, there were 78 attacks. In 2015, there were 648."
huffingtonpost.ca (2016) by Associate News Editor, Trends and Traffic, The Huffington Post Canada // "Politicians shouldn't wait. Because if they do, adults and children will keep being attacked in their homes and elsewhere. And the pit bull lobby, so desperate to keep the public on side, will fiddle as they bleed." // "People are a tough sell on the idea of a pit bull ban because of a powerful lobby that is intent on misleading the public and verbally mauling anyone who would dare raise the prospect of one. It's a loose coalition of official organizations and pit bull lovers intent on harassing people out of their opinions on social media." // "It's a lobby that misleads people with cute photos of friendly pit bulls and tall tales of the dogs serving as nannies to children." // "And the pit bull lobby, so desperate to keep the public on side, will fiddle as they bleed."
theprovince.com (2016) // "The emails from Mimidis were full of myths promoted by the well funded pit bull lobby "
montrealgazette.com (2018) Montreal Gazette, Canadian newspaper // "The father of Vanessa Biron, who was disfigured by a dog in a park in Brossard in 2015, appeared, urging MNAs not to cave in to pressure from the pit bull lobby whom he compared to the NRA in the United States, which defends Americans’ right to carry guns."
sfgate.com (2005) San Francisco Chronicle // "Strain is now a member of the increasingly vocal pro-pit bull lobby. Groups have formed locally and nationally to help shuttle dogs out of Denver, provide housing outside city limits, and wage legal and political battle against existing and proposed bans." // "The anti-breed specific legislation lobby inundated her office with more opposition letters and phone calls than on any other issue in her 17 years of public service. Most were from outside her district."
theprovince.com (2015) The Province // "The additional fatal pit bull attack of Rebecca the very next day was damaging to the agenda of the well-funded pit bull lobby. Many questions are being asked by the public: Why the suicide ruling? What was the role of the pit bull lobbyists?"
Opinion pieces, editorials, letters to the editor
Some of these are authored by regular contributors to these publications. These are included here to show how the term "pit bull lobby" is used by a wide array of authors, and the first one on the list defines the term.
starherald.net (2019) a letter to the editor // Uses the word "lobby" 10 times and delineates several organizations and activities // "this group of dedicated individuals opposed to BSLs is known as the “American Pit Bull Lobby.” " // Their tactics though have been likened to the tactics of Big Tobacco, for example, buying their own research studies, never admitting the truth, hiring PR firms, and distorting science.
nationalpost.com (2017) Opinion piece on National Post, a Canadian newspaper // Headline: "Barbara Kay: Pit bull lobby put on its heels by Quebec's dangerous dog bill, CBC documentary" // A passionate, year-long public debate ensued, featuring intense lobbying of Quebec politicians by U.S. pit bull advocates opposed to breed specific legislation (BSL). // "Other documentaries on pit bulls exist, but most are propaganda from the pit bull advocacy pipeline, for my BSL camp is David to the pit bull lobby’s Goliath, the canine equivalent of the NRA." // "Mild-mannered Fifth Estate host Mark Kelley found his in conversation with Ledy VanKavage, hired lobbyist for the pit bull advocacy group, Best Friends Animal Society. Kelley asks VanKavage: “Why do [pit bulls] need a lobby?” // "given the constellation of features that are so damning to the pit bull lobby’s reflexive catechism of excuses" // "VanKavage — you can see the light dawning — realizes she has inadvertently given her lobby’s game away. "
thetimeherald.com (2015) Opinion piece by a syndicated columnist on Michigan's The Times Herald // "It’s time we stop being intimidated by this vocal minority and the multimillion-dollar funded pit bull lobby group and start demanding public safety." // "More than 3,000 unwanted pit bulls are euthanized daily in shelters across the U.S. and Canada due to rampant overbreeding, and that is the fault of the unscrupulous pit bull lobby promoting them as safe family pets when they are not. One in 107 fatally attack an animal and one in 6,000 attack a human."
modbee.com Editorial on The Modesto Bee // "Should we have the right to protect ourselves from vicious dogs? Or do we just roll over, play dead and refuse to speak up because the misguided pit bull lobby makes a lot of noise?"
theprovince.com (2016) Opinion piece // "Best Friends Animal Society, a pit bull lobby group earning more than $65 million a year, quickly jumped on board and began to build their industry." // "Vancouver had restrictions on pit bull type dogs until 2005, when lobbyists convinced city council to treat pit bulls the same as any other dogs." // "Despite the vociferous efforts of the four per cent of dog owners protesting BSL in a few cities, and the millions of dollars behind the pit bull lobby movement, the controversy over breed legislation in Canada is at least helping to raise the visibility of ongoing attacks."
thetyee.ca (2015) Opinion piece on The Tyee // A quote from Mia Johnson “In the last three years, an additional 160 cities in the United States adopted BSL policies to protect their citizens from pit bulls. This was despite the fact that Best Friends Animal Society, the largest American pit bull lobby group who earned $66.6 million dollars in 2014 relentlessly campaigned against BSL during this time.”
Advocacy publications
Undoubtedly, the term "pit bull lobby" was coined by those engaged in opposing lobbying efforts that are pro-pit bull.
rc4ps.org Responsible Citizens for Public Safety, an advocacy organization // Defines the term in great detail
animals24-7.org (2017) // "The focal question, asked repeatedly by Kelley of Best Friends Animal Society pit bull lobbyist Ledy van Kavage, is “Why do pit bulls need lobbying? Why do they need an organization? Why do they need a network fighting for them?”" // "and the rest of the pit bull lobby bag of tricks"
Thanks for those sources, Normal Op. A lot of them at best are RS for only author's own opinion, as they are mostly opinion pieces, or at least having the term filtered through quotes, and many of these are not reliable at all - heavy.com has consensus at RSN for being unreliable, HuffPo blogs are not considered reliable, The Province is a tabloid and not reliable, etc. As you say - the term is almost entirely used by organizations and people that oppose pro-pit bull positions, or advocate for breed-specific legislation. Without specific wording proposed to add to the article, I'm not sure there is anything that can be done with this information. PearlSt82 (talk) 21:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[]
My feelings are given this is a term used predominantly in North America and the vast majority of the contents are about these dogs in North America, there is room for separate articles. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 09:32, 18 August 2020 (UTC).[]
I think the only notable aspect of that other article is that the FCI (which is a major registry) does recognize the existence of a grouping off "bull-type terriers", which includes essentially the same breeds as are recognized as "pit bull types" in North America, though only the breeds that they recognize (so AmStaffs, but not APBT, even though the breeds are essentially identical), and includes the bull terrier which is normally not included with pit bull types (though was actually included here when I first watchlisted the article, though has been long removed). Everything else is just plain redundant. It doesn't matter at all if "pit bull" is a predominantly North American term, that doesn't justify a separate article, as Wikipedia articles are on concepts, not the names for them. I see no reason for that article to exist. It should be redirected here, with a description of FCI's grouping included as one way to define the type. (The fact that the person who started that article added the term as a "see also" at the terrier article months before they made that article instead of properly linking it in the article body where it is mentioned tells me that the article was incompetently created and the person didn't do enough to see that it was a redundant fork.) oknazevad (talk) 14:59, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[]
The book Pit Bull: The Battle over an American Icon is to date I believe the only book on the subject of the pit bull which covers history and the controversy published by a major publishing house. Reading through the book, it raises several points which could be used to fill in gaps in this article, and provide a more reliable, authorative overview than some of the disparate news covered.
So the issue I'd like to raise is: is this source reliable for these claims, and should it be given more weight than some of the recently added sources? (Time, Sports Illustrated, etc)
This isn't the exact wording I'd like to include, but rather a rough gist of what is being said, that could be appropriate for the article. The points are:
For History section:
Mars Wisdom Panel is able to match the DNA of more than 250 breeds, but the American pit bull terrier is not one of them due to extensive mixed-breeding and lack of pure bloodlines
across the United States pit bulls heavily used in advertisement campaigns during the 1920s, not because the dogs were believed to be menacing, but because they were thought to be so friendly and appealing to the “average Joe.”
American Staffordshire terrier and the Staffordshire bull terrier had been bred for dog shows since the mid-1930s
pit bull reputation as "dangerous dog" begins in late 1970s with public outcry over dogfighting
that the pit bull was once called a “nanny dog” or a “nursemaid dog" is a myth that originated in the 1970s
Once the pit bull was portrayed as an “inner-city dog,” it became a magnet for racial fears about crime and the American underclass.
Bad publicity only made pit bulls more popular among the people who wanted dangerous dogs
"Early in the 1980s, reporters hit on a formula for pit bull stories that immediately drew readers into heated arguments. It presented the dogs in terms of opposing forces—good/bad, nature/nurture, villain/victim—behind an interrogatory headline"
terms “crack cocaine” and “pit bull” were linked in the media extensively from 1986 to 1990, the legend of the urban pit bull would become a literal companion piece to America’s failed war on drugs: the number of crack stories that appeared in The New York Times increased from forty-three at the end of 1985 to more than three hundred in 1986
For dog attack risk section:
Veterinarians, animal behaviorists, and public health experts, including those at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), are virtually unanimous in their denunciation of BSL on the grounds that it is both cruel and ineffective
the AKC does not register either the American pit bull terrier or the American bully, so their statistics cannot be used for estimating the overall number of pit bulls
Most dog bite studies conducted around the world after 1958 Parrish study would find nearly identical patterns of dog bite behavior - "it was not possible to single out an individual breed as being particularly vicious"
No researcher has yet located an “aggression gene” or a set of aggression genes, despite years of genomic analysis
a number of studies have confirmed that dogs lash out most frequently from fear and anxiety, not “rage.”
first paper that describes pit bulls as "disproportionately" dangerous Pinckney and Kennedy paper from 1982
in June 1986, Franklin Loew, dean of Tufts University’s School of Veterinary Medicine held workshop “Dog Aggression and the Pit Bull Terrier.”, which concluded that the press’s coverage of pit bulls was misleading the public - direct quote from workshop: "The media maintain the state of hysteria by reporting any pit bull attack but ignoring incidents involving other breeds. Under these circumstances it becomes increasingly difficult to present a calm and reasoned argument." and "the available data did not support the claim that pit bull terrier–type dogs were overrepresented among biting animals." - animal control records say german shepherd topped bite lists at the time
retired surgeon William Eckman killed in 1987 by two dogs, triggers public outcry, prompting Ohio legislators to pass a bill declaring all pit bulls to be “vicious"
Randall Lockwood, reverses his position in his "Are ‘Pit Bulls’ Different? An Analysis of the Pit Bull Terrier Controversy" paper, which was quoted in nearly every major pit bull news story of the 1980s and appeared on the 700 club - says "The insanity over pit bulls is why I got out of the dog bite business, all the media wanted to do was publish data tables out of context. None of the real facts made any difference to anybody. It just became too crazy." "Not only are fatal dog attacks a minuscule representation of the total dog population and of the total pit bull population, they’re a minuscule representation of the dog bite population" lockwood no longer believes in concept of dangerous breeds
numerous papers presented in (human) medical literature that make physically impossible and claims not in presented citations like 1989 Baack paper "Once [pit bulls] have their victim in a hold, they do not merely maintain the ‘bite,’ but continue to grind their premolars and molars into the tissue while the canine teeth stabilize the hold" - which perpetuate themselves through citations
"in the quest for journalistic balance, many reporters have given DogsBite.org and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention equal airtime, framing the issue as though two scientifically rigorous institutions just happen to disagree"PearlSt82 (talk) 23:40, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Dickey is a pit bull owner and a pit bull advocate. She is not an expert on dogs (not even on pit bulls), is not a historian, and not a scientific academic. She is a generic writer. Judging by the extremely professional publicist launch of her very first (and only) book, the book was probably commissioned. Enough of the claims in her book are ridiculous enough ("nanny dog"?) to NOT seek to raise Dickey to the status of 'expert' for a Wikipedia article that has already been contentious for years. I wouldn't attempt to insert Dickey into this article unless your purpose is to further unbalance POV in the Pit bull article. Tell me you're not serious about lobbying to include her as an expert here. Normal Op (talk) 04:37, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[]
The idea that pit bulls were ever called "nanny dogs" is a myth, and this comes idea up from time to time again - this is the only source I know that discusses that. WP:IRS states "Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable" and "For example, a paper reviewing existing research, a review article, monograph, or textbook is often better than a primary research paper" - this book has been reviewed and the author profiled in Psychology Today, New York Times, National Geographic, WRBH, and Manhattan Book Review. And yes, I would like to use this book for this article - if no consensus can be reached here on reliablity, we can do an RSN to settle the issue. PearlSt82 (talk) 14:03, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Right - as I'm sure you're aware, this is a rather lengthy content dispute, and I'd like to sort out the ground floor reliability of this source first before sorting out WP:DUE issues. PearlSt82 (talk) 14:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Fair enough. I think it's generally reliable for this topic, based on the reception you linked, [6] etc. It doesn't say Professor of dogs, but a Visiting Lecturer in Journalism and Public Policy MFA (Nonfiction Writing) should be able to write a decent book. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:46, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Also, regarding your claim that there is no known "aggression gene", this is a fairly gross misunderstanding of genetics. There is no single gene that produces any behavior, behavior is an aggregate phenomenon from many thousands of genes. There is no one aggression gene just like there is no herding gene, no pointing gene, no retrieving gene, and no barking gene? Do you deny that there are breeds that herd, point, retrieve, and bark more than others? If Dickey is using this pseudoscientific argument as a talking point then the book is probably not RS. Geogene (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[]
Time source and weight
As written in the lede, it is both undue and a misrepresentation of the source. The text currently reads: "Independent organizations have published statistics based on hospital records showing pit bulls are responsible for more than half of dog bite incidents among all breeds despite comprising 6% of pet dogs". The text in the article is: "Pit bulls make up only 6% of the dog population, but they’re responsible for 68% of dog attacks and 52% of dog-related deaths since 1982, according to research compiled by Merritt Clifton, editor of Animals 24-7, an animal-news organization that focuses on humane work and animal-cruelty prevention." As such this does not support the idea that "independent organizations" have published statistics - this is the work of a single person, Merritt Clifton. As noted above, the AVMA states: Dog bite statistics are not really statistics, and they do not give an accurate picture of dogs that bite.7 Invariably the numbers will show that dogs from popular, large breeds are a problem. This should be expected because big dogs can physically do more damage if they do bite and any popular breed has more individuals that could bite. Dogs from small breeds also bite and are capable of causing severe injury. There are several reasons why it is not possible to calculate a bite rate for a breed or to compare rates between breeds. First, the breed of the biting dog may not be accurately recorded, and mixed-breed dogs are commonly described as if they were purebreds. Second, the actual number of bites that occur in a community is not known, especially if they did not result in serious injury. Third, the number of dogs of a particular breed or combination of breeds in a community is not known because it is rare for all dogs in a community to be licensed and existing licensing data is then incomplete.7 Breed data likely vary between communities, states, or regions, and can even vary between neighborhoods within a community. Should the Time source reflecting the work of one person be given the same weight as the position statements of an organization like the AVMA? And when the statistics are as fraught with error as the AVMA and other sources state, should we be publishing Merritt Clifton's work in Wikipedia's voice, especially when sources like the Dickey book (p. 215) state that he has no relevant credentials and that his works are entirely self-published? PearlSt82 (talk) 12:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[]
I think this actually speaks to the core nature of the article and the disagreement.
In short:
Should we give higher weight to the positions of AVMA, ASVAB, ASPCA, etc, which say that dog bite statistics are unreliable and breed is not a factor in aggression, and treat sources like Time which rely on the work of one person as being a misapplication of statistics? Or,
Should we give sources like Time greater weight and treat the statistics as absolutes, and treat the AVMA, ASVAB, ASPCA as biased sources attempting to explain away the statistics? PearlSt82 (talk) 13:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[]
I suspect one could easily argue that the AVMA, ASVAB, and ASPCA do have biases that Time doesn't; the ASPCA is an advocacy group. I don't find Dickey reliable for reasons I just posted in another section. Geogene (talk) 15:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[]
talk
Facepalm... You weed out every "historical dog" where there are no contemporaneous records about its breed heritage, because you get all manner of people guessing "what was", and no one is an expert on something they weren't there for and have no records to evaluate. It's all guessing. Try as you might, I'm not going to discuss "pit bull, definition of". My point has always been that Nipper, and several other of the historical dogs, have no record of their breed, and some don't even have photographs (like Nipper doesn't). Content in a Wikipedia article should describe or illustrate the subject of its title to educate a reader. Suppositions have no place in an encyclopedia. It doesn't serve the reader, and it doesn't serve the subject. Normal Op (talk) 09:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
