Talk:January 6 United States Capitol attack

Undesirable redundancy between infobox images and sidebar images

At present, two images each appear twice in the lede. Both first appear in the infobox, only to immediately reappear in the sidebar that's transcluded directly after the infobox.

As we select new non-duplicate images for the infobox/sidebar, we should take care to distinguish between true "attackers" like the Proud Boys and the genuinely-peaceful protesters outside. To pick on just one of the three images: The mock gallows is an evocative image, but it's a protest image; to include it twice in the lede implies, presumably falsely, that it was created by someone to aid in the attack on the capitol -- this is especially likely to confuse readers who are unfamiliar with just how far the US's freedom of speech goes: creating a non-functional gallows to mock-threaten your leaders is fully legal and even consider a well-worn patriotic tradition as long as meant metaphorically. The other images have similar issues -- they depict largely non-violent protesters milling about outside. Feoffer (talk) 09:54, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the gallows image is just a protest image, however the protest outside the capitol is the most recognizable image; I couldn't see this page with anything else. And there were unaffiliated attackers in the protest crowd. I don't think we need to differentiate, everyone there broke through the fences or trespassed, they are attackers. Personisinsterest (talk) 12:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

It's okay to use the gallows image once in the body -- but using it TWICE in the lede is too much. The lede images probably should be of attackers, not protester-trespassers. Feoffer (talk) 13:16, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Y2kcrazyjoker4 and Giovanosky: could you both take a look at the navigation box right below the infobox? Navigation boxes aren't visible in the mobile theme, so if you're on a phone or tablet, you'll have to use the desktop theme. To do so, scroll all the way down and click the "Desktop" link at the bottom of the page; to switch back to mobile scroll down to the bottom and click "Mobile view".

Right now 2 images are repeated in the lead for desktop and laptop users. They should be either removed from the infobox or removed from the navbox. When choosing the top image for the navbox keep in mind that it will be the thumbnail image used by Wikipedia for articles containing the navbox at the top of the page like International reactions to the January 6 United States Capitol attack and Sedition Caucus.

Good luck, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The images for this article should be selected independently based on what makes this article best, not based on a separate nav box that may or may not even be visible to all users. For concerns about image repetition, I would take the discussion to the talk page for the nav box. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 20:15, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Y2kcrazyjoker4: I've posted a notice about this discussion at Template talk:January 6 United States Capitol attack sidebar. Have you been able to see how the article looks on desktop? Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 20:29, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I removed a BLP violation where we characterize the gallows as having been "erected by a rioter" -- we have no knowledge that the creator was a rioter or attacker. Per NPOV, I also replaced the "tear gas deployed against rioters" image with a "bear spray deployed against police" image -- the focus of the article is not non-violent people carrying signs, it's the attackers who came prepared for violence. Feoffer (talk) 04:27, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Second bomb location suggestion

The second bomb placed on January 5 was certainly near the RNC headquarters, but its exact location was at the Capitol Hill Club, a private Republican club across an alley from the RNC. This might be worth mentioning. Here’s a map from the FBI: https://www.fbi.gov/video-repository/map-of-jan-5-pipe-bomb-route-090821.mp4/view. Atubofsilverware (talk) And a mention in the Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2022/01/january-6-capitol-hill-pipe-bomb/621178/ 12:57, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Please update criminal charges and how many found guilty

The "Aftermath" section contains this outdated paragraph:

• A large-scale criminal investigation was undertaken, with the FBI opening more than 400 case files. Federal law enforcement undertook a nationwide manhunt for the perpetrators, with arrests and indictments following within days. More than 615 people have been charged with federal crimes.

Can someone please update it with the info from Criminal proceedings in the January 6 United States Capitol attack? Something like this, perhaps.

• A large-scale criminal investigation was undertaken, with the FBI opening more than 1,200 case files. Federal law enforcement undertook a nationwide manhunt for the perpetrators, with arrests and indictments following within days. Over 890 people had been found guilty of federal crimes.

♦ WikiUser70176 ♦(My talk page) 00:33, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for the suggestion! Feoffer (talk) 01:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Ashli Babbitt killing subheader

The subheader for the killing of Ashli Babbitt, "QAnon follower killed by police while attempting to breach Speaker's Lobby," seems very anti-NPOV. Wouldn't something less derisive/controversial, like replacing "QAnon follower" with "Rioter" be more appropriate? Loltardo (talk) 02:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not "derisive", her ties to QAnon are routinely discussed in RSes as what led her to the Capitol. Feoffer (talk) 03:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like an assumption based on tenuous evidence. What led her to the capital was Donald Trump and the election, not QAnon. I agree it should be changed to rioter. Sounds too conspiracy/tin-foil hatty to call her some "QAnon follower". MutedL (talk) 15:55, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Facts, not feelings. There is nothing incorrect in the text. Zaathras (talk) 04:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Responding to the posts above... We have to rely on what the reliable sources characterize Babbitt as. Was she described as a QAnon follower? Yes. Was she also described as a "rioter"? or as a member of a "mob" of people? Yes. In the RS surrounding the time of the event it seems to me that she & the people in that group were mostly described as "rioters", "a mob" and "members of a mob". Babbitt's political beliefs & her internet history seem to have not appeared until later, when journalists went over her Twitter history, when her family members were interviewed. I don't think choosing to use any of the following - "QAnon follower" or "Rioter" or maybe even "Stop the Steal participant" - isn't necessarily incorrect, it's a matter of editorial consensus and relying on what the RSs say and if editorial consensus is relying on the news dated on that actual day, in that actual month or if the editorial consensus relies on the research & writing that came much later. Shearonink (talk) 17:56, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it's simply too detailed of a subheader, regardless of whether it's an accurate way to describe her personal beliefs or motivations. "Rioter" or "Participant" is a much more concise description. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:56, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Politico Cite by Joshua Zeitz for consideration in the Analysis and terminology section - Historians' perspectives

Joshua Zeitz via Politico

"The political wisdom of using a constitutional provision to bar Trump from the presidential race, and thereby deny voters a free choice as to whether he should return to the White House, is debatable. So is the question of whether Section 3 is “self-enacting” in his case. Is he disqualified because he did what he did, or does he need to be convicted?"

"The history behind the 14th Amendment proves its general applicability. Conspiring, whether by violence or coercion, to overturn the outcome of an election is precisely what Confederate officers and officeholders did. They didn’t like the outcome of the 1860 election, so they tried to dismantle the United States, first by walking away, then by force.That was what Section 3 called “insurrection or rebellion” against the United States government."

"It’s hard to argue that the same thing didn’t happen in the aftermath of the 2020 election. For symbolic measure, insurrectionists carried the Confederate battle flag into the Capitol on Jan. 6, marching in lock step with an earlier generation of Americans who aspired to end our system of government. That it was a bungled attempt, and that it didn’t work, doesn’t make it different."

In this same vein of thought, is the consensus here that only if Trump is convicted would the term "insurrection" apply in terms of the article's title or otherwise? Feel free to direct me to previous archives and or RfCs.

Cheers. DN (talk) 05:33, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Add year to article title.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Change from January 6 United States Capitol attack to January 6, 2021 United States Capitol attack. There is a redirect there now.

Believe it or not, English Wikipedia is read around the world, and not everybody knows this happened in 2021. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:30, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

September 11 attacks do not include a year. Is there a Wikipedia policy that supports this? Feel free to make a requested move! LegalSmeagolian (talk) 16:17, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I often forget years for events, even 9/11. I am just pointing out the obvious. As a longtime editor, I expect nothing. Others can fight it out over such a trivial matter. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:20, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Believe it or not, other languages have their own wiki's. Slatersteven (talk) 16:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

You have the right to miss my point. News flash: Other countries are majority English. Many countries have populations where large percentages read English. European countries for example. Readers in many other countries prefer English Wikipedia over the other-language Wikipedias. Feel free to continue living in your bubble. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:20, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe the WP:COMMONNAME for this event is "January 6", much as the COMMONNAME for September 11 is, well, "September 11". – Muboshgu (talk) 18:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, the redirect is being kept: January 6, 2021. See discussion.

WP:COMMONNAME: "Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." And: "For cases where usage differs among English-speaking countries, see also National varieties of English, below."

Again, people outside the US bubble.

On the Commons we try to put more, not less, info in the file names. To aid search engines on and off the Commons in finding images, etc..

In other countries there have been various attacks on capitols. Dates galore.

But I can see that this may well be a case where obedience to inadequate US-centric policies will prevail. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:21, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think anyone objects to January 6, 2021 redirecting to this article - I still don't see why you are so upset that the page title is Jan 6 US Capitol Attack - the year is mentioned in the article, it is the only attack to happen on the US Capitol on any Jan 6, etc etc. Take a breather as WP:COMMONNAME applies, you are only one English speaker of over a billion, and I haven't seen an outcry from others objecting to this as the common name. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 21:27, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Someone tried to eliminate the redirect solely because it had the year in the redirect. It is as illogical there as it is here. What is wrong with providing more info in the title? And let's say someone creates a list of capitol attacks around the world. All without years. Just month and day. What a poor list that would be. It is a dumb US-based policy. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:33, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

google the difference between Capitol and capital LegalSmeagolian (talk) 21:35, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I did that before I first used it here. Proves my point about US-centrism. To think that there haven't been many other capitol buildings attacked around the world. Gotcha. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:46, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Kind of falls under crystalball adding the year in title. Cwater1 (talk) 23:41, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

On the English-language Wikipedia, we prefer WP:CONCISE titles, and that applies to non-American topics. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:46, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

This seems obviously significant enough that WP:NOYEAR applies. VQuakr (talk) 23:47, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

We have

• February 6 Intifada (Lebanon)
• February 8 Declaration of Independence (South Korea)
• February 26 incident (Japan)
• February 28 incident (Republic of China)
• March 15 incident (Japan)
• March 18 Massacre (China)
• March 24 strike (Republic of Congo)
• April 9 tragedy (Georgian SSR)
• April 16th incident (Japan)
• April 26 Editorial (China)
• April 27 demonstrations (China)
• May 9 riots (Pakistan)
• May 14 Revolt (Portugal)
• May 15 incident (Japan)
• May 16 coup (South Korea)
• May 17 Agreement (Lebanon/Israel)
• May 17 Statement (Republic of China)
• May 24 measures (North Korea/South Korea)
• June 4th revolution in Ghana
• June 9 Deng speech (China)
• June 15th North–South Joint Declaration (North Korea/South Korea)
• June 15–16 events (Turkey)
• June 29 Declaration (South Korea)
• July 13 Penghu incident (Republic of China)
• July 15 Incident (China)
• August 1 Declaration (China)
• September 11 Great Armed Clan Feud of Matian (China)
• October 9 Revolution (Ecuador)
• October 22 Scud missile attack (Israel/Egypt)

whereas, in my scan, I came across only four or five similarly composed titles for US topics, so kindly dispense with your unwarranted, unprovoked leap to US-bashing as your go-to rationale for requesting a title change. Largoplazo (talk) 00:33, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the list. It illustrates my point perfectly. I have no idea what most of those events are, nor what year they occurred. And WP:NOYEAR says most events should have a year. At least in their examples. Scroll up.--Timeshifter (talk) 00:46, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that list debunks your point. You not knowing what year an event happened does not justify adding years back to all titles that don't have them. Your response reads to me as WP:IDHT so it's time to WP:DROPTHESTICK. Zaathras made a good non-admin close and as an WP:INVOLVED admin, I welcome them to reinstate it. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:50, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

On whose end is the "Failure or refusal to "get the point" "?

The guideline actually says I am correct: WP:NCWWW. At least concerning most items in the above list. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:57, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

You're disregarding all of the examples at WP:NOYEAR and down, but okay then. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:24, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I think given the OP's insistence to expire on this the mounded protrusion, we may as well let them, a reinstatement by little old me won't stick. As for the topic, J6 is near-universally recognized for what it is. Adding a year would not be helpful. Zaathras (talk) 01:02, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I withdraw my request. Far be it from me to try to stop American systemic bias on English Wikipedia. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I am dying to know how a list that shows that year-less titling bears no correlation to US topics justifies your turning this title into an opportunity for US-bashing. Largoplazo (talk) 01:09, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Since you asked. Your list is from countries around the world. Unless you live in that country many people have little or no idea what that article concerning that country is about. At least not from the way-too-short titles. Wikipedia is not paper. WP:NOTPAPER. We can afford a few more words in article titles. This phobia against having a few more words in article titles (when they serve a purpose) is just silly. But who am I to fight the herd instinct here. It is funny that after all the wikilawyering, I found the better guideline: WP:NCWWW.

And a few years from now "January 6" will be even more meaningless to many people outside the US. The most ridiculous titles in your list are the ones with month + day + "Incident". --Timeshifter (talk) 01:23, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't know why you're bothering to respond to me at all if you're only going to address points I didn't make while ignoring the point I did make. Largoplazo (talk) 02:11, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

From WP:NCWWW: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events)#Conventions

In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors: When the incident happened. Where the incident happened. What happened.

For their examples they add years. You added countries to your list. As years go by more people outside the US will not know of the US Capitol attack. So we have what and where it is in the title. A year in the title would help others outside (and even inside the US for kids) remember it better, and in context of what else they remember happened that year in the world, and in the US. Why not add the year now? But as I said I have withdrawn my request for this article title. But your list shows a great need. I will probably be posting it on the relevant guideline talk pages. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Don't forget to keep reading the page, past where it says Some articles do not need a year for disambiguation when, in historic perspective, the event is easily described without it. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I already pointed out that the guideline did not require the year for all articles. I am going to propose that for all the reasons listed above. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:55, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Not needed; there's only one January 6 Attack. Go look in the archive to see the consensus to exclude the year. Feoffer (talk) 03:26, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Don't forget the Glorious October Revolution! (Quick...what year was that, again?) Mathglot (talk) 04:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes. That thing that happened in November! Dumuzid (talk) 04:23, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

The first words in this article are "On January 6, 2021..."; I don't know why the year needs to be in the article title when anyone who doesn't know what year it took place just has to read the first few words of the article to find out. Indeed, I'm not sure what even hypothetical benefit putting a year in the article's title would give to any reader: if the year is included in the title, then someone who doesn't know what year it took place in definitionally can't go directly to the article. If anything, including the year would make it less accessible to someone who doesn't know what year it took place in. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 07:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. You don't need to know the year to find the article. You need to be able to find "January 6 attack" when you see a reference to it somewhere. Additional information is in the article. Whether somebody knows in advance that the attack happened in 2021 doesn't need to be dealt with in the title any more than the nature of the attack has to be. The title doesn't need to be January 6, 2021, attack on the US Capitol by people who were convinced that the 2021 election had been stolen. Largoplazo (talk) 12:51, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Given that OP's question has been responded to by *nine* unique editors (sometimes more than once) all of whom are in agreement that OP's proposition is not gonna fly, It is obvious that WP:CONSENSUS is now more than apparent, and that WP:SATISFY applies in spades. Further replies to this thread seems like a waste of everyone's time. If an uninvolved editor would like to {{atop}} or {{hat}} it, you'll probably get a big round of applause. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 26 January 2024

January 6 United States Capitol attack → January 6 insurrection – The events of January 6 are commonly referred to as an “insurrection”. When people talk about January 6, they are very likely to call it an “insurrection”. Most media and news outlets refer to it as “the insurrection”. I am not sure about the exact title I have proposed, but the title should at least include “insurrection”. MountainDew20 (talk) 02:28, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Most media and news outlets refer to it as "the insurrection": But do they? Which ones? Do Fox News, OAN, and Breitbart call it that? Or only media within a particular range of political leanings? I think of the event as an insurrection, so I'm not basing my lack of support on my own convictions. But I don't know that it's primarily or properly called that, or whether we should repeat media that do call it that without a neutral, formal finding that it was one. Have any of the many people who've been convicted for their role in the event thus far been convicted of insurrection? Largoplazo (talk) 03:07, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Sedition is the more serious charge -- insurrection is only 10 years, sedition is 20. Feoffer (talk) 03:15, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Whether this constitutes an insurrection depends on who you ask. If I were to ask you if it did, you would say yes, but this isn't about out personal convictions. Conservative outlets, from what I've seen, tend to call it a riot. Also, from what I've seen (and I'm not going to call anyone out specifically), the majority of people who lean left call it an insurrection, and the majority of people who lean right call it a riot. To answer your last question, nobody has been charged with or convicted of insurrection. The closest thing would probably be the conviction of Stewart Rhodes and other Oath Keepers on charges of seditious conspiracy. Unknown0124 (talk) 03:35, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:RSP, Fox News, OAN, and Breitbart are not considered reliable sources for information about politics in the United States, so they don't count here. (This is not an expression of support for the proposed renaming.) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 05:05, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Since when does anyone care about what OAN or Breitbart say? GMG^talk 02:13, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Comment We do have multiple seditious conspiracy convictions and at least two states have ruled it was an insurrection. Maybe it's time. Feoffer (talk) 03:11, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I see no reason for the change. The current title is accurate and uncontroversial. Riposte97 (talk) 11:13, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - The current title accurately represents overall what happened, which was an attack on the United States Capitol on January 6 [2021]. Insurrection is accurate, but in general, I see absolutely no need to be changing the title whatsoever, although if there is anyone who can think of good reasons, I would be happy to rethink that position. Lawrence 979 (talk) 12:39, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose as a bad descriptive title. Best title yet was the old one, 2021 storming of the United States Capitol. I would support a return to that title. Srnec (talk) 17:27, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I prefer the current one over the one you propose, as “January 6” or “January 6th” should be in the title in some form as that is the common name. MountainDew20 (talk) 00:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

If we were to put “storming of the United States Capitol” in the title, then it should be “January 6 storming of the United States Capitol”. MountainDew20 (talk) 00:23, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I would support a move to January 6 riot. The term "insurrection" may be interpreted as politically biased. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 21:29, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral at this moment. Although I think "insurrection" is a good descriptor, I am taking into account the above comments. Maybe "insurrection" is a biased POV. Also, the current title does represent the events described in the article well enough. However, I am open to seeing if "insurrection" is a good fit per this discussion. I think "riot" would not be as good a descriptor as what we have now. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 23:58, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, I have to agree that 2021 storming of the United States Capitol sums up the events chronicled in this article fairly well. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 00:04, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Support A previous user suggested that the title should not be changed to insurrection because "Fox News, OAN, and Breitbart [do not] call it that," therefore there was not a consensus among the media. I would like to point out that according to Wikipedia's own Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, OAN is considered a depreciated source and that editors "noted that One America News Network published a number of falsehoods, conspiracy theories, and intentionally misleading stories. One America News Network should not be used, ever, as a reference for facts, due to its unreliability." Breitbart is also on the spam blacklist and depreciated for publishing "a number of falsehoods, conspiracy theories, and intentionally misleading stories as fact." Fox News for politics and science is listed as "generally unreliable for the reporting of politics, especially from November 2020 onwards." So yes, I support calling it an insurrection, because sources that are actually reliable call it that. BootsED (talk) 01:52, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

The fact that I picked those prominent conservative news sources in the United States doesn't mean that there aren't others that aren't considered unreliable. My point is not dismantled by disqualifying those specific three. The point is that "insurrection" is a matter of opinion; it's unlikely that most Trump-supporting or ultra-conservative news sources are calling it that; and, therefore, the claim that Most media and news outlets refer to it as "the insurrection" is not likely valid. Largoplazo (talk) 02:11, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

That's really irrelevant. What matters is what most media and news sources that are considered reliable call it. "Ultra-conservative" and "ultra-liberal" sources have an extremely low correlation with reliability. I would trust more neutral sources like Associated Press and BBC, more than MSNBC and Fox. ~Anachronist (talk) 01:47, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, for now I'd prefer to hold off on this until/if the ex-president is convicted in United States of America v. Donald J. Trump, or a preponderance of sources begin to describe it as such. Zaathras (talk) 02:20, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Of “insurrection”, “riot” and “attack”, the third has the right POV balance. Insurrection is premature before a conclusive court result. Riot is too random. Oppose removal of “United States Capitol”, as it is critical to recognisability and central to the topic. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that the use of "United States Capitol" in the title is a pertinent element because it took place at the US Capitol. Unknown0124 (talk) 17:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed that the specificity is missing, but that is essentially a technicality. The general nature of the question is easily understood. DN (talk) 00:24, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Support I checked three fact-checking sites with the question. Politifact.com argues that it was an insurrection. Neither FactCheck.org nor Snopes.com directly addressed this question as far as I can see, although they did refer to it as an insurrection in other checks. Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 22:37, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I sent a request to Snopes to address the question. Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support Many experts and historians seem to lean this way, however a complete scholarly consensus will probably take more time since many seem to be waiting on the verdict, per the recent talk page discussion I started earlier, above. DN (talk) 00:14, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose by SmokeyJoe's rationale.

— Goszei (talk) 04:26, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

• Leaning oppose. Such a move would suggest that the events of January 6 encompass the whole of the insurrection, when in fact it began well in advance of the election, whenever the decision was made that a loss in the election would be met with a claim that it was rigged and an effort to overturn it. BD2412 T 16:37, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose but not ferociously so. I agree with others who have noted that we may have clear call to use the term insurrection in the future as historians fully come to a very clear consensus that it is the correct term and/or the legal case against Trump is convicted. For now it is worth noting, for example, that Trump's second impeachment did not yield a conviction (albeit because it required a supermajority rather than a mere majority. Secondly, insurrection implies a substantial amount of intent, but there was many historically significant aspects of this that didn't quite fit under that sam intent. Several involved were there for everything from peaceful protest to promoting violence and chaos for the sake of violence and chaos (as opposed to a direct plan for insurrection). The fact that there was an attack of the US Capitol seems sufficient at this point in history rather than narrowing the scope of the title to indicate why that attack was occurring (which is addressed in more detail in the article). I suspect history will eventually come to the conclusion that "insurrection" is the correct wording; I just don't think we are at a broad consensus on that point yet. Aranae (talk) 20:32, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per rationale of SmokeyJoe, BD2412, and Aranae. Current title is compliant with WP:AT, and I see no compelling reason to change it at this time. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 23:30, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
• Comment Very recently, The Guardian posted an article in regard to Trump v. Anderson, which reports: "Twenty-five historians of the civil war and Reconstruction filed a US supreme court brief in support of the attempt by Colorado to remove Donald Trump from the ballot under the 14th amendment, which bars insurrectionists from running for office." DN (talk) 02:04, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

  Perhaps, in lieu of a full title change, we could prominently mention the scholars and the court rulings that conclude it was an insurrection in lead, without necessarily getting into the disqualification of any individual candidate until later? Some middle ground short of a full wikivoiced titled change? Feoffer (talk) 02:36, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

  The phrasing is misleading. The scholars made two points. (1) The presidency is an office of the United States and therefore the prohibition against people having engaged in insurrection applies. (2) The amendment is in force without requiring additional legislation by Congress.

  The scholars were replying to arguments that Trump's lawyers had presented. I imagine their view would have broad support because these arguments appear extremely weak.

  However, the brief does not address whether an insurrection occurred. TFD (talk) 02:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

  It may seem misleading in your view, except it repeatedly refers to future insurrection(ists)...If you wish to conclude they are talking about some event other than January 6th, or some type of crime other than insurrection, I simply and respectfully disagree.

  • Page 18. "Contrary to many laws that targeted former Confederates in southern states, Section 3 enshrined disqualification in the Constitution with generic language that does not reference the rebellion or former rebels. Unlike statutes, as part of the Constitution, Section 3 endures indefinitely, free of tampering by future Congresses. Republican Senator Peter Van Winkle of West Virginia said during debates over the 14 th Amendment, “This is to go into our Constitution and to stand to govern future insurrection as well as the present; and I should like to have that point definitely understood.”17 (emphases added)" (emphases not mine)
  • Page 19. "They pardoned persons previously disqualified under Section 3 but did not vitiate this provision of the Constitution by exempting future insurrectionists or rebels from its coverage.
  • Page 20. "Our study of the records of Congress demonstrates that debates centered on amnesty for those involved in the Southern Rebellion, not on amnesty for future insurrectionists.
  • Page 26. "Justice Chase recognized that “The amendment applies to all the states of the Union, to all offices under the United States or under any state, and to all persons in the category of prohibition, and for all time present and future.”32 (emphasis added)" (emphases not mine)
  • Conclusion. "For all the foregoing reasons, the Court should take cognizance that Section 3 of the 14th Amendment covers the present, is forward-looking, and requires no additional acts of Congress for implementation

  DN (talk) 03:43, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

  The linked brief is just one small piece of a larger puzzle; So far as I am aware, all sides in that case agree an insurrection did occur, they're just arguing over Trump's potential involvement and disqualification, a very different question than the one we're faced with. Feoffer (talk) 03:49, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose We would need to show that there is a legal and academic consensus for this. IMHO that is unlikely since the term is poorly defined. Essentially it is legislation that allows the president to suspend constitutional rights when civil order has broken down. TFD (talk) 02:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Moving to "insurrection" would introduce bias. Here's what I found in response to Anachronist's query about what the Associated Press and the BBC call it:

• The AP calls it a "siege" and a "riot." (That page is titled CAPITOL SIEGE and includes "Capitol riot" over 10 times in headlines. As recently as Jan. 5, 2024, they called it a riot and an attack, but not an insurrection.
• Just as recently the BBC titled a page "U.S. Capitol Riots" and went on to call it a riot and an attack, but not an insurrection. Three years ago they published an article titled, "Capitol riots: World media see Trump ignite an 'insurrection'." YoPienso (talk) 03:49, 29 January 2024 (UTC)