Talk:Katyn massacre

Blechley not monitoring Katyn messages—truth or fiction?

“Robert Harris’ 1995 novel Enigma … featured the discovery of the Katyn massacre as a central plot point.” – I wonder if Harris’ tale that Britain on March 4, 1943 very exceptionally stopped monitoring messages about the massacre, if that’s a fact or fiction? Page 295: “And you intercept everything? – Absolutely. Unless you tell us not to.” The book is online, incidentally, try http://j dot mp/2AmFmTF , even in German. – Fritz Jörn (talk) 07:23, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

No mention of Grover Furr's views?

The Mystery of the Katyn Massacre by Grover C. Furr purports to prove that the Soviets were not responsible for the massacre. Is it worthy of mention on the page as a controversy, or is it merely pseudo-history by a Stalin apologist? I came here to see if Furr's views were mentioned, but it may be that he's essentially a Flat Earther on this topic. PapayaSF (talk) 03:45, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Furr essentially is the equivalent of a Flat Earther on this topic. His work is not subject to peer review by any serious scholars or academic publications. Furr's main claims are that the documents released during the Glasnost era proving full Soviet guilt for the crime—as well as the admissions of full guilt by both the Soviet government in 1989 and the Russian government in 2010—are mere forgeries created to demonize Stalin, while NKVD's own self-absolving reports from 1944 are completely genuine. He bases a lot of this on the "reseach" of a Stalinist member of the Russian Duma who has a history of denying all the evidence of Stalin's crimes as mere forgeries. Don't take any of Furr's research seriously. ImperatorPublius (talk) 23:50, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia has become a sect and a joke. Imperator's answer illustrates why. I encourage everyone to look into Grover Furr's work, censured by narrow minds like Imperator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.88.141 (talk) 07:58, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I have not read this book but I reflect that a Stalinist like Mr Ilyukin could have a vested interest in deflecting criticism or blame that gets put to Stalin's regime, so I would question what he has to say as well.Cloptonson (talk) 09:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• There's no such thing as Stalinism, Wikipedia's point of view notwithstanding. If 100 historians attack the hegemony's enemy, and one defends him at great personal cost, does that make the latter less truthful or credible than the former? Jesus Christ, man. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:FDAB:DE17:63D:1386 (talk) 05:25, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Katyn denial redirects here, but the topic is not discussed in the article. A section about such revisionist views could be added, IMHO. What do you think, User:Buidhe? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:02, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus, I don't object to that but it has to be written from a non-Fringe perspective. (t · c) buidhe 07:18, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Soviet version underrepresented, German pistols were the weapon of choice

So, the biggest evidence for "the Germans did it version" is literally the fact that the execution was done with the German weapons... And this is explained away with "Soviet pistols had too much recoil"? Is this a joke?--Adûnâi (talk) 08:54, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

The claim is supported by this ref: "See for instance: Polak, Barbara (2005). "Zbrodnia katyńska". Biuletyn IPN (in Polish): 4–21. Archived from the original on 8 December 2009. Retrieved 22 November 2007 (in Polish). Do you have good reason to doubt that source and/or argue that it has been mis-translated? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

FACR issues

Hey folks. I have some concerns with the article at hand. I'm not positive it fulfils all the WP:FACR points—as a matter of fact, I think it falls short of the criteria on several key issues. In particular, I fear that the copy has many instances of close paraphrasing. Let's take a look:

Article: The Red Army advanced quickly and met little resistance

Source: Soviet army intervention met with little resistance

Article: Once at the camps, from October 1939 to February 1940, the Poles were subjected to lengthy interrogations and constant political agitation by NKVD officers, such as Vasily Zarubin.

Source: Once there, the Poles were placed in "special" (concentration) camps, where, from October to February, they were subjected to lengthy interrogations and constant political agitation.

Article: The prisoners assumed they would be released soon, but the interviews were in effect a selection process to determine who would live and who would die.

Source: The Poles were encouraged to believe they would be released, but the interviews were in effect a selection process to determine who would live and who would die.

Article: In 1944, Roosevelt assigned his special emissary to the Balkans, Navy Lieutenant Commander George Earle, to produce a report on Katyn.[25] Earle concluded the massacre was committed by the Soviet Union.[25] Having consulted with Elmer Davis, director of the United States Office of War Information, Roosevelt rejected the conclusion (officially), declared he was convinced of Nazi Germany's responsibility, and ordered that Earle's report be suppressed. When Earle requested permission to publish his findings, the President issued a written order to desist.[25] Earle was reassigned and spent the rest of the war in American Samoa.[25]

Source: In 1944, President Roosevelt assigned Capt. George Earle, his special emissary to the Balkans, to compile information on Katyn. Earle did so, using contacts in Bulgaria and Romania. He too concluded that the Soviet Union was guilty. FDR rejected Earle's conclusion, saying that he was convinced of Nazi Germany's responsibility. The report was suppressed. When Earle requested permission to publish his findings, the President gave him a written order to desist. Earle--who had been a Roosevelt family friend--spent the rest of the war in American Samoa.

Article: Katyn was a forbidden topic in postwar Poland. […] Not only did government censorship suppress all references to it, but even mentioning the atrocity was dangerous

Source: Katyn was a forbidden topic in postwar Poland. Censors suppressed all references to it. Even mentioning the atrocity meant risking reprisal.

Article: During the 1951–52 Congressional investigation into Katyn, Bissell defended his action before the United States Congress, arguing it was not in the U.S. interest to antagonize an ally (the USSR) whose assistance the nation needed against the Empire of Japan.

Source: During the 1951–52 Congressional investigation into Katyn, Bissell defended his action before the United States Congress, arguing it was not in the U.S. interest to antagonize an ally (the USSR) whose assistance the nation needed against the Empire of Japan.

That's only after aprox. ten minutes of spotchecking. I fear that there might be a whole lot more copyvio concerns lurking in the article. We also have a EL farm, a See also farm, and a pop culture farm (with clunky bullet points). I'd like to note that I took part in the FAR in 2011, where it was kept after half a year of antagonistic behaviour and sniping. I hope to achieve a more collegial atmosphere this time round. This article may be kept as an FA, but a lot of homework needs to be done here. Best, Eisfbnore ^(会話) 02:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

I have been asked to assist with copyediting.

The above article quotations, set beside their source texts, apparently raise concerns in Eisfbnore's mind about possible copyright violations.

I expect that such concerns can be readily resolved by Eisfbnore or by another Anglophone editor.

If there are concerns about the accuracy of anglicizations of Polish-language texts, I will be happy to look at any that may be brought to my attention.

Thank you.

Nihil novi (talk) 09:52, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• National Katyń Memorial, Harbor East, Baltimore.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:53, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

German perpretators?

@Baztain: please help us understand why you want to make your major change to the article. I will take some time to dive deeper into your sourcing, but my first glance suggests that the sources for 'the Nazis did it' are not as reliable as existing sources. Grover Furr's book, for example, is on the fringe of historical scholarship. In the meantime, perhaps you'd like to highlight the most reliably sourced changes your proposing? It's important for you to gain consensus for changes like these. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 15:30, 1 September 2021 (UTC)