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Ethnic groups Start‑class High‑importance

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Name of Catalans in French

See here: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalans Wathiik (talk) 15:10, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[]

Catalans "an ethnic group"?

I disagree with the introduction of this article, as User:Beethoven insists on keeping it. The question is whether "Catalans" should be defined as "an ethnic group" or as the people or citizens of Catalonia.

The reference provided by Beethoven to justify the use of the term "ethnic group" is the book One Europe, Many Nations by James B. Minahan. There are two problems with this. First, the source says "Catalans are a Romance people" - not mentioning the term "ethnic group" at all! Furthermore, this source is at least non-neutral, and to me rather unreliable. The author claims to be "an independent researcher living in Barcelona" and writes things like "[the Catalans] are known for their energy and intelligence", and suffered "a massive influx of peasant immigrants from Spain's backward south". Overall, the text of this book seems to be written from a 100% nationalist perspective.

There is no universal definition of the term "ethnic group" and it is never used in Spanish media or textbooks to describe the country's population. Not even the book by Mr Minahan uses it. Wikipedia should not adopt a definition of Catalans that no one else supports.

If Catalans are defined as the speakers of the Catalan language, then one can say that they form a linguistic community, but this is only one possible definition of the word Catalans, and it excludes many inhabitants of Catalonia as well as including many inhabitants of other territories.

The official term used in the Catalan statute of autonomy for Catalonia is "nationality". There was controversy in 2006, when the new version of the statute proposed to replace that word with "nation" and the change was finally rejected (Article 1).

The official definition of Catalans in the current statute of autonomy is "the citizens of Spain who live in Catalonia" (Art.7).

For these reasons, I propose to go back to the definition of Catalans as "officially, the citizens of Catalonia, an autonomous community in Spain and the inhabitants of the Roussillon historical region in southern France, today the Pyrénées Orientales department (...)". I am open to including the word "nationality" somewhere but taking care that the Rossillon should not be included in its scope. --Hispalois (talk) 15:46, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[]

I'm not the one insisting on keeping it. This article has been like this for many years. It seems that you are the one insisting on deleting it for no apparent reason. I don't really understand what's your problem with this. The definition of ethnic group is pretty clear. It's the same definition in English language, in Catalan, in Spanish or in any other language. Since I see that you are a Spaniard, you can check Spain's RAE dictionary for the Spanish definition. Catalans are an ethnic group in any of those languages.

It's an objective fact that Catalans are an European ethnic group, sharing a common language, history, society, culture and land for many centuries. With first references to Catalans (Cathalanenses) dating back to the 11th century.

It's the exact same definition that we can find in Wikipedia for other European ethnic groups like Galicians, Basques or Occitans. Those are all ethnic groups. Why make the exceptions for Catalans? Under which basis Catalans are not an ethnic group but the others are ethnic groups?

As you said, it's true that in the present, Catalonia is legally defined as a "nationality", and that in 2006 Catalans voted in favor that Catalonia could be legally defined as a "nation", but that Spain ultimately rejected it. However the legal status of Catalonia is irrelevant here, since this article is about Catalans, not about Catalonia. The lead should define what Catalans are, which they are a historical ethnic group that currently live in Catalonia, Northern Catalonia (currently part of France) and abroad. Similar thing we can see with Occitans article, where they include a part of Catalonia that belongs to the Occitan ethic group: Aran Valley. The current administrative French region of "Occitanie" is irrelevant to the ethnic group of the Occitans. Same with Basques, that includes the Basque territory that currently belongs to France. --Beethoven (talk) 16:28, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[]

Let me add that I'm not the one who provided the source One Europe, Many Nations by James B. Minaha. I restored it from previous versions of the article.

It seems that your claims against this source are pretty unfounded, when it's used in almost every ethnic group article in this Wikipedia, be it Frenchs or Germans. Making it definitely neutral and reliable. This very book is also the only source used in the article Spaniards, despite the fact the book doesn't mention "ethnic group" nor "Romance" for Spaniards at all. But the book describes Catalans, Frenchs, Spaniards, etc. as peoples with the distinct traits of an ethnic group, therefore an ethnic group. If you prefer we can add to the lead: "Catalans are an European Romance¹ ethnic group native to Catalonia". Moving the source right after Romance. Anyway, I personally find a bit odd this nitpicking obsession that you seem to have for the article about the Catalans, when as you can see, the same thing happens with the rest of the ethnic groups articles. --Beethoven (talk) 17:30, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[]

I would like to keep the discussion here restricted to the article Catalans. I don't know what people have written about Occitans, Spaniards or whatever and those articles should not be taken as reference here. Let's get this article right and then, if necessary, move to other faulty articles.

You have stated your opinion of why Catalans are, according to you, an "ethnic group". But that is only your opinion and needs to be backed by reliable sources. The book by Minahan does not use the term so it does not back up the claim. Pending new sources, I am going to add a citationrequired template to the statement on Catalans being an ethnic group. I am specifically asking for at least one reliable source that applies the term to Catalans.

For your information, there is not one widely accepted definition of ethnic group and the concept is variously associated with race, language, geographical origin, religion... Ethnicities are social constructs that evolve over time and that can be perceived differently by different people and at different periods of history. An emphasis on categorizing people in ethnicities is called "ethnicism". As you may have suspected, I do not adhere to ethnicism.

My alternative definition of Catalans is the people who live in Catalonia. Not only is that what official documents say, it is just what common people mean when they say Catalans in the media and in everyday conversations. What is your exact problem with this definition? --Hispalois (talk) 18:21, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[]

@@ Line 75: / Line 75: @@
 ::It seems that your claims against this source are pretty unfounded, when it's used in almost every ethnic group article in this Wikipedia, be it [[Frenchs]] or [[Germans]]. Making it definitely neutral and reliable. This very book is also the only source used in the article [[Spaniards]], despite the fact the book doesn't mention "ethnic group" nor "Romance" for Spaniards at all. But the book describes Catalans, Frenchs, Spaniards, etc. as peoples with the distinct traits of an ethnic group, therefore an ethnic group. If you prefer we can add to the lead: "Catalans are an European ''Romance''<sup>1</sup> ethnic group native to Catalonia". Moving the source right after Romance. Anyway, I personally find a bit odd this nitpicking obsession that you seem to have for the article about the Catalans, when as you can see, the same thing happens with the rest of the ethnic groups articles. --[[User:Beethoven|Beethoven]] ([[User talk:Beethoven|talk]]) 17:30, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
+:::I would like to keep the discussion here restricted to the article [[Catalans]]. I don't know what people have written about [[Occitans]], [[Spaniards]] or whatever and those articles should not be taken as reference here. Let's get this article right and then, if necessary, move to other faulty articles.
+:::You have stated your opinion of why Catalans are, according to you, an "ethnic group". But that is only your opinion and needs to be backed by reliable sources. The book by Minahan does not use the term so it does not back up the claim. Pending new sources, I am going to add a citationrequired template to the statement on Catalans being an ethnic group. I am specifically asking for at least one reliable source that applies the term to Catalans.
+:::For your information, there is not one widely accepted definition of ethnic group and the concept is variously associated with race, language, geographical origin, religion... Ethnicities are social constructs that evolve over time and that can be perceived differently by different people and at different periods of history. An emphasis on categorizing people in ethnicities is called "[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ethnicism ethnicism]". As you may have suspected, I do not adhere to ethnicism.
+:::My alternative definition of Catalans is the people who live in Catalonia. Not only is that what official documents say, it is just what common people mean when they say Catalans in the media and in everyday conversations. What is your exact problem with this definition? --[[User:Hispalois|Hispalois]] ([[User talk:Hispalois|talk]]) 18:21, 13 July 2019 (UTC)